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Discuss fertilization techniques here. For advanced growers only!

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By KingLouis_CLXXII
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#416313
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07NLSMDXT/ref ... F46SWZCA_0

I know using Miracle-Gro is usually a sin but has anyone had success in using this? I've read that CPs appreciate high nitrogen fertilizer so 28-10-10 seems perfect. I saw this post which used Miracle-Gro Miracid however Miracid has been discontinued and I can't find a non-blurry spec sheet to compare with the 28-10-10 stuff.

Any insight would be appreciated :)
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By Panman
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#416314
No. The problem with most fertilizers is the salt minerals that are used in it. Those are what kills the plants. If you insist on fertilizing your plants, you are best served by using Maxsea which has a proven track record with CP.
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By Panman
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#416366
I don't know what to tell you. For years people have been trying to find fertilizers that are safe to use with CP, some with more success than others. Maxsea has been found to be safe when used at the appropriate concentration by the sheer number of people who have and currently used it. One thing Peter D'Amato noted about the use of Maxsea was that when it was used on sphagnum moss, the moss responded favorably. If any other fertilizer was used, the moss died. This tells me that there is something inherently different in the composition or origin of the ingredients of the two products.
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By ChefDean
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#416369
KingLouis_CLXXII wrote:Do you know what mineral exactly is the problem? Is it the sodium content?
Sodium isn't present in those fertilizers, but that's not what he meant by salts.
Many of the elements, including almost all metals, are salts. Sodium is a soft metal in it's elemental form, and highly reactive to water. Pure sodium will explode in water (it's cool, I've done it), but when mixed with Chlorine, it becomes Sodium Chloride, or common table salt. NaCl doesn't explode in water, only lowers the freezing point, raises the boiling point, and brings out the flavor in my Coq Au Vin. All the rest of the metals present in the products you've provided labels for are also salts, along with Nitrogen, Phosphorous, and Potash. While those metals are more toxic to carnivorous plants than to other plants, and in lower numbers, they're still somewhat essential.
All three listed also contain copper, which is very toxic to plants. While the Miracle Gro stuff has 700ppm (.07%) and the Maxsea has 500ppm (.05%). Not much difference between them, but there's something more. I think the biggest thing you missed is the sulphur in the Maxsea. Sulphur binds with copper, creating Copper Sulphate, which can still be harmful to the plants, but in much greater levels than what is now present. Plus, as an added benefit, CuSO4 is an effective fungicide, but most of it will be flushed out next time you flush your pots.
Bottom line, you can try the MiracleGro stuff if you want, they're your plants. Or you can try the stuff that has been proven safe (at recommended dosages) time and time again.
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By za419
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#416422
Being hard to find is definitely something of a factor. It's pricey, but you get your money's worth because the stuff lasts FOREVER - I got a little $5 jar months ago from CalCarn with some friends when a certain someone (who wasn't me for once) wanted a flytrap - I've barely made a dent in the big jug of water that didn't make a dent in the supply of powder to mix up. It's really easy to accidentally have a life supply as a hobbyist grower...
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By DragonsEye
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Joined:  Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:22 pm
#416433
I will start by saying, I do agree with Chef overall, but I am rather OCD when it comes to terminology and its correct use. Apologies, my dear chef, but I am going to be a bit of a nit picker here (chalk it up to the teacher in me :ugeek: )....
ChefDean wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:32 pmMany of the elements, including almost all metals, are salts.
Metals are not salts. Rather they constitute an important part of the make-up of salts. (Salts are the result of ionic bonding between a metal atom(s) and a nonmetal atom(s) for anyone out there who might care.)
ChefDean wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:32 pm All the rest of the metals present in the products you've provided labels for are also salts, along with Nitrogen, Phosphorous, and Potash.
Nitrogen and phosphorous are not salts, they are both nonmetals. Potash (K2O) is indeed a salt as it is potassium bonded to oxygen. (Potash is typically used as a source of potassium in many fertilizers.)

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Irrelevant additional comments/musings:
ChefDean wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:32 pmSodium is a soft metal in it's elemental form, and highly reactive to water. Pure sodium will explode in water (it's cool, I've done it), ...
Pure potassium is even more fun. :D
ChefDean wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:32 pm While those metals are more toxic to carnivorous plants than to other plants, and in lower numbers, they're still somewhat essential.
As is the case with so many things in life. Take bacon for instance ..... :mrgreen: But seriously, it is a very common truism. For example, some sodium is important for proper functioning of the human body. Too much results in high blood pressure and other issues.
ChefDean wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:32 pm All three listed also contain copper, which is very toxic to plants.
Interestingly, at least to me, it is also poisonous to many other lifeforms as well -- including humans in higher concentrations. Mollusks and many aquatic invertebrates are typically particularly sensitive to copper.
ChefDean wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:32 pmBottom line, you can try the MiracleGro stuff if you want, they're your plants. Or you can try the stuff that has been proven safe (at recommended dosages) time and time again.
Indeed. One of these days, I should try MSU's orchid fertilizer. Be interesting to see how the cps would respond.

I see, Chef, that you are a proponent of the UK spelling of "sulphur" as opposed to the Yank version, "sulfur." :mrgreen:
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By ChefDean
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#416438
DragonsEye wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:54 pmMetals are not salts. Rather they constitute an important part of the make-up of salts. (Salts are the result of ionic bonding between a metal atom(s) and a nonmetal atom(s) for anyone out there who might care.)
DragonsEye wrote:Nitrogen and phosphorous are not salts, they are both nonmetals. Potash (K2O) is indeed a salt as it is potassium bonded to oxygen. (Potash is typically used as a source of potassium in many fertilizers.)
All completely true, but much easier to describe as salts, and even are referred to as salts in college chemistry courses (at least the ones I have taken so far. I hear Organic Chemistry is a beast) if only because there are so many ways they can become part of a salt. More importantly, easier for most people to correlate them to unwanted in their carny plant water/media/environment. We could go into ionic bonding, polar/non-polar, anions, cations, oxoacids, amines, R-groups, etc., but nobody has time for that here, and they just want healthy plants. It's simpler for most people to understand when they're referred to as salts.
DragonsEye wrote:I see, Chef, that you are a proponent of the UK spelling of "sulphur" as opposed to the Yank version, "sulfur." :mrgreen:
I must confess that I did pick up that treasonous spelling from the above mentioned college courses. Even the biology books spell it sulphur. Blasphemous!
DragonsEye wrote:Indeed. One of these days, I should try MSU's orchid fertilizer. Be interesting to see how the cps would respond.
Before I knew what I know now, I used African Violet foaming fertilizer on a Sarracenia. Maybe that's how it survived multiple years on my east facing windowsill with out a dormancy.
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By ChefDean
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#416445
Yeah, I refrained from commenting on the inference that too much bacon is a bad thing. Can you imagine the debate that would rage about the mere hint of a suggestion of a recommendation of a thought that too much bacon (arguably the most important of the six food groups) is a bad thing?
If one were to hypothesize that too much bacon is bad for you, that's fine, as long as they don't expect me to believe so. I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I can't force them to be correct.
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By Intheswamp
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#416450
ChefDean wrote:Yeah, I refrained from commenting on the inference that too much bacon is a bad thing. Can you imagine the debate that would rage about the mere hint of a suggestion of a recommendation of a thought that too much bacon (arguably the most important of the six food groups) is a bad thing?
If one were to hypothesize that too much bacon is bad for you, that's fine, as long as they don't expect me to believe so. I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I can't force them to be correct.
Truer words have never been spoken...politicians should study the above statement and write a 10-page response to it (to be reviewed by at least 2,000,000 bacon-eaters, before being allowed to run for office. The statements should be the lead-in each professor states to all incoming college freshmen at the beginning of Bacon 101 !!!!!!!!!! That would solve so many of the world's problem...
By Sundews69
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#416458
Bluefire wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:29 pm What about vegetarians and other dietary restrictions?
I never liked bacon, but now my family is vegan so I can't eat it anyway. (I'm sure there is plant based bacon somewhere)
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