FlytrapCare Carnivorous Plant Forums

Thanks for your input, Sander. I imagine that the fungus could be controlled with an anti-fungal? (neem oil maybe?)
I'm going to give it another try with the LFSM, despite your fair warning; but for now I'll limit it to some young typicals, and try to monitor the growth rate vs. similar ones in other medium.
I wasn't quite sure what you meant by "overgrown low VFTs". Are you saying that the lower growing varieties grow too fast in it? That doesn't sound like a bad thing. If I'm misunderstanding something there, could you elaborate, please?

sbrooks wrote:I'm assuming that it was someone fairly close to you guys;

Yes, it was our former employee. And in her defense, she only did what I had instructed. It was just bad timing with the weather that made it so that my instructions were obsolete.

sbrooks wrote:I'm also assuming that on the last vacation that you guys took a few weeks ago, you made "other" arrangements for plant-sitting?

Yes, our new employee watered this time. He's got a very green thumb and grows his own CPs, so he better understands the watering schedule. Also, it is much easier to water in the summer because the weather is so predictable. Hot and sunny every day means you just keep watering every morning to get the moss moist. It nearly dries out by the end of the day and then repeat the next day.

sbrooks wrote:I was under the assumption that most of your plants were in greenhouses, and that rainy weather wouldn't effect them that much.

They were. But when they sit in water for a week, it doesn't matter if they're in a greenhouse or outside, they'll still rot (some of them anyway).

sbrooks wrote:We had a cool, rainy summer (which never happens).

Right, my dad can't stop talking about how great the summer was there. He lives in Festus, where I grew up, which isn't all that far from you Steve...just across the river actually

sbrooks wrote:Thanks for your input, Sander. I imagine that the fungus could be controlled with an anti-fungal? (neem oil maybe?)
I'm going to give it another try with the LFSM, despite your fair warning; but for now I'll limit it to some young typicals, and try to monitor the growth rate vs. similar ones in other medium.
I wasn't quite sure what you meant by "overgrown low VFTs". Are you saying that the lower growing varieties grow too fast in it? That doesn't sound like a bad thing. If I'm misunderstanding something there, could you elaborate, please?

Well, i didnt see any negative effects on the growth that can be contributed to the fungi (it could also be the water level), i have had no rot issues tho, but i have heard ppl that sphagnum has anti fungi chemicals, well, not the sphagnum i have.

Well, by overgrowing meaning, if u have seedlings in living lfsm, the moss outgrows the seedlings, so u have to regularly "trim" the moss (which u can use to "sow" a new batch btw).

But let me be clear, ive only had a hand or 2 of vft's in lfsm, and only one season, so this isn't reliable in any way, but as i did, i would recommend anyone to try what works best, i can say the living lfsm worked great when temperatures were really high(30+ C), but am not sure yet if i want to keep my plants in it.

I might have a test next year with my seedlings, i should have a sample size of ~10 for living lfsm and peat/perlite.

Matt wrote:until May when we went away for a weekend and let someone else water. The watering was timed with an unexpected cool and rainy week worth of weather. The plants were very over watered and the weather was cool and damp, which led to severe rot.

I once overwatered a tray of B52s and they got root rot. That is they got true root rot. I have some experience with hydroponic growing and have seen root rot before. Real root rot has an extremely foul odor it, quite possibly the most foul smell you will ever smell and it turns the roots to slimy sludge. It's hard to forget it if you have ever seen/smelled the real deal. I suspect that what many CP hobbyists are calling "root rot" is just fungi attacking dead roots because the roots were already damaged or shed for other reasons.

What I've seen happen with VFTs that are kept overly wet and cold is that they shed roots. The bottom of the roots turn gray or black and they recede in the strand. Later on they are exposed to warmer temperatures but then lack the necessary roots to handle it and they get desiccated and shed all over like crazy. This usually kills the plant as it doesn't usually recover from it. Often they make little VFTs in the dying mess I've noticed though.

The thing is that VFTs that are established and their current growth is in sync with the weather tend to do this to a lesser extent in the early Fall when they transition from Summer to Fall leaves. They shed both roots and leaves and then make like 1 or 2 new root nubs. This isn't always enough to support the plant's health if they then experience a lot of heat and especially dry heat in the Fall. I have seen this happen again and again so many times that I'm convinced it is a natural phenomenon that VFTs are genetically programmed to do even though I have never read this info anywhere or ever heard anyone else articulate it besides myself before.

What I think happens, and this is my theory, I freely admit I may be wrong and if someone else knows better feel free to correct me, is that in their native habitat VFTs are exposed to a lot of rain in July and August and this rain raises the water table under the ground making the soil wetter. The VFTs then, if they experience too much cold and wetness react to this by shedding their Summer roots. The idea being that if they are already experiencing cold and wet they will not need those roots in the coming few months and will then use shorter newly formed/forming Fall roots instead. I believe this is what normally happens with them.

So if they experience cold and wet they think it is a wet late Summer/Fall better prepare for this by shedding those Summer roots hard and fast because they think they won't need them. If this is done artificially in cultivation by being suddenly kept too wet and and cold they have this Fall time built in response like this. Except in cultivation they may very well be exposed to strong light. heat, and dryness after this and then that proves to be fatal as they lost their previous ability to handle this with Summer roots.

I've also found that wet and warm often doesn't produce the same root shedding results, especially if it is during the Spring or early Summer. It could also be that the root shedding in the wild is triggered by being covered in water completely as that happens sometimes in the wild that they get flooded from hurricanes and tropical storms.

I have no doubt that if they shed roots from being too wet and especially from being too wet and cold that fungi are indeed eating their shed roots but I think that the root shedding was done by the plant intentionally and not as a result of the fungi attacking them and the fungi are just eating the shedding roots after the fact.

I'm interested in hearing if any other readers here, particularly ones who have grown VFTs for a while, have seen this same type of phenomenon, and what they think about my theory here.

Matt wrote:Thankfully I didn't lose anything that I couldn't replace, but it certainly opened my eyes to the risk of over watering with the LFS. I've never had something like that happen with the peat-based mixes. Nor have I lost so many plants to dehyration as I have this year. Keeping the LFS moist but not wet, especially with smaller pots is extremely challenging and time consuming, requiring regular checking and water, sometimes twice a day. But then with the peat-based mixes, I've never seen such dramatic and rapid growth, so I decided it was worth the risk and extra work. It certainly paid off in the cases where I got it right (the majority), like the Alien plant. But it cost the ultimate price in cases where I didn't, as in the death of my mother Triton plant.

It seems clear to me based on my own growing experience that what is the appropriate amount of wetness for LFS is very different than the appropriate amount of wetness for peat/sand. The LFS needs to either be kept wetter or watered much more frequently and if you are growing them in a warm dry type climate this means kept wetter as watered more frequently may not be enough. The peat/sand seems to be able to be drier more of the time and even to require this. If the peat/sand is kept as wet as is ideal for the LFS it may result in the roots shedding or rotting from what I've seen.

On the top of my care sheet that I send to my customers Matt is says this, "Attention!!!(If you are new to growing Venus Flytraps I strongly recommend reading this care sheet multiple times, checking the potting diagram on the back of this page, and strictly following the directions here, even if you have read differently in a book or online.)" The reason why I put this blunt and even slightly pushy statement is because over the years I have found some customers of mine read online how to care for a VFT where the directions say not to overwater them, don't put them in a pool of water, only water them when the soil gets a little dry, etc,. Obviously this is good advice for peat/sand or peat/perlite but terrible advice for LFS in short pots. I have found customers who deliberately rejected my instructions to grow their plants in a pot with a pool of water that never 100% dries out. They then let it dry out or never sit it in water at all thinking that I am wrong and what they read online is correct. Do you know what the result is when they do this? They email me and tell me their plant died, don't know why it died, and occasionally are even angry about it. I then have to go over with them how they grew their plant, figure out where they went wrong, point out to them, politely, that what they did is not what the care sheet said to do and then send them another plant. It consumes my time dealing with the death of a plant that easily could have and should have been avoided and costs me the expense of shipping them another plant. I sometimes wonder how much money and time I've lost dealing with this due to someone's good intentioned and contextually correct care instructions online that work great for peat/sand but absolutely terrible for LFS in shorter pots when you live in the warmer bottom half of the US.

I guess I don't technically know what root rot is, but I do know that the plants did shed roots (as you mention Joel) and that they then proceeded to rot (the rhizomes). Yes, some of them made new smaller plants, but a large portion of them simply left a hole in the moss where they used to grow.

idontlikeforms wrote:The reason why I put this blunt and even slightly pushy statement is because over the years I have found some customers of mine read online how to care for a VFT where the directions say not to overwater them, don't put them in a pool of water, only water them when the soil gets a little dry, etc,. Obviously this is good advice for peat/sand or peat/perlite but terrible advice for LFS in short pots.

Interesting. We never leave our plants sitting in water even in the LFS and in short pots. We do occasionally water from the bottom and allow them to soak up all the water the moss can hold, but try to never leave water standing in the trays. The few times we have, we have lost plants from rot.

In terms of watering, I grow plants in LFS just the same as I do in peat-based mixes. I rarely lose them to dehydration (it's easy to water them when they're drying out), but frequently lose them to rot, particularly when the moss is packed to tight and they're left sitting in water.

Matt wrote:I guess I don't technically know what root rot is, but I do know that the plants did shed roots (as you mention Joel) and that they then proceeded to rot (the rhizomes). Yes, some of them made new smaller plants, but a large portion of them simply left a hole in the moss where they used to grow.

I believe what happens is the roots shed then they get desiccated and then the whole plant dies. Above the ground they just look a little haggard at first but if you break the leaves you should see they are more brittle and drier overall. I see the rhyzomes eventually rot when all this happens as well but first the roots shed, then the leaves and traps dry a bit and lastly the rhyzome rots. If you're not keeping a close eye on them at all stages of this you may just notice they don't look so perky and then the rhyzomes rot and when you dig them up to see this the roots are basically rotten and shed/shedding too. But I've seen it happen enough times, especially in late August and September that I try to spot the whole process as early as possible and hit the plants with rooting hormone before the desiccating and then rhyzome rotting gets to start. If I'm lucky a heat wave won't come before they can send out enough roots and they keep growing with only a minor setback in the long run. I also keep the water level in their trays lower when the night time temperature is forecast to drop a lot even if it is hot during the day because this seems to prevent it from happening. It may mean I have to water more frequently though.

idontlikeforms wrote:The reason why I put this blunt and even slightly pushy statement is because over the years I have found some customers of mine read online how to care for a VFT where the directions say not to overwater them, don't put them in a pool of water, only water them when the soil gets a little dry, etc,. Obviously this is good advice for peat/sand or peat/perlite but terrible advice for LFS in short pots.

Matt wrote: Interesting. We never leave our plants sitting in water even in the LFS and in short pots. We do occasionally water from the bottom and allow them to soak up all the water the moss can hold, but try to never leave water standing in the trays. The few times we have, we have lost plants from rot.

In terms of watering, I grow plants in LFS just the same as I do in peat-based mixes. I rarely lose them to dehydration (it's easy to water them when they're drying out), but frequently lose them to rot, particularly when the moss is packed to tight and they're left sitting in water.

In CA we have Santa Ana winds in the Fall. The air gets drier and windier and warm. Much of the Southwest US is like this. In your climate it is not as warm during the day in the Fall but in inland CA you could never get away with no pools of water for the plants to sit in. Even in coastal CA it's an issue in the Fall. Also if you are growing VFTs outside vs a greenhouse there is a difference. Wind is a factor in drying and direct sunlight, especially without even shade cloth, will dry LFS way faster than sunlight through a greenhouse. Matt I know you say it usually works for you to grow them in LFS with no pool of water but in my experience it's dangerous for many places in the US. Even with a VFT indoors next to a sunny window it doesn't take much for the LFS to seem moist to a customer but still be dangerously dry if there is no pool of water. Some customers put their plants in north facing windows too and this makes things worse. When that sunlight hits the glass of the window it dries the air around it too. It's not like a greenhouse and most people have AC units that further dry their indoor air as well. If you put a hygrometer next to a sunny window and look at it when the sun is shining on it you'd be surprised how low the humidity gets. Of course I do not doubt that you have good results with LFS where you are at with no pool of water most of the time. But it's not the same for everyone else in the US with how and where they grow their VFTs. I do believe that the net pots I use are indeed enabling the LFS to dry faster too but this isn't a huge factor. The main thing is the direct sunlight, heat, and dry air in the indoor growing climate as well as outdoors for many places in the US.

I completely agree with your and Leah's observation about the moss tightness BTW. There is an ideal amount of slight looseness that makes the VFTs grow great for about a year and half. At that point the moss starts compacting and by 2 years it's not really a good medium any more and needs to be replaced. This is more of an issue for mother plants though as the rest are almost always either being sold or transplanted for one reason or another by then anyways. Just to give you a heads up, You might want to keep this in mind if you have mother plants in LFS but have not done it for 2 years yet.

If the moss is too tight I find they shed roots but often regrow others before it becomes a huge issue. They still grow slower overall with tight moss and sometimes it doesn't hydrate well too. If the moss is too loose the plant can dry out too easily as well.

idontlikeforms wrote: I see the rhyzomes eventually rot when all this happens as well but first the roots shed, then the leaves and traps dry a bit and lastly the rhyzome rots. If you're not keeping a close eye on them at all stages of this you may just notice they don't look so perky and then the rhyzomes rot and when you dig them up to see this the roots are basically rotten and shed/shedding too. But I've seen it happen enough times, especially in late August and September that I try to spot the whole process as early as possible and hit the plants with rooting hormone before the desiccating and then rhyzome rotting gets to start. If I'm lucky a heat wave won't come before they can send out enough roots and they keep growing with only a minor setback in the long run.

That sounds like it may be something different than what we experienced. The plants definitely didn't dry up in any way. They just rotted in the moss, which was kept perpetually wet for about a week or 10 days. It never got above 50 degrees the entire time, so heat had nothing to do with it.

idontlikeforms wrote:in inland CA you could never get away with no pools of water for the plants to sit in.

That would depend on the type and size of the pot. A large pot with lots of moss in it will hold water for a long time, even in extremely hot and dry weather (like we have here in the summer). But you are correct that a small pot (3 or 4 inches) would not stand a chance in full sun, hot temperatures and dry winds. It would likely dry out in a matter of hours. During the summer, to avoid leaving plants sitting in water, I sometimes water twice a day when it's 100°F and the humidity is in the 20% range.

idontlikeforms wrote:At that point the moss starts compacting and by 2 years it's not really a good medium any more and needs to be replaced.

Right, we've noticed that as well. After about 2 years, the plants start declining and simply don't grow well until repotted.

idontlikeforms wrote:If the moss is too loose the plant can dry out too easily as well.

Yes, that's another issue. And then another problem comes with watering when plants in the same tray are potted at different densities. Trying to keep all of the pots just moist is almost impossible without having to water each pot individually. Due to differences in how densely packed the moss is in each pot, some are soaking while others are nearly dry.

Growing with LFS definitely seems to be more labor intensive and challenging, in my opinion, when compared to peat-based mixes. But the results with LFS are usually superior in terms of how quickly the plants grow to sale size when compared to peat-based mixes.

Matt wrote: That sounds like it may be something different than what we experienced. The plants definitely didn't dry up in any way. They just rotted in the moss, which was kept perpetually wet for about a week or 10 days. It never got above 50 degrees the entire time, so heat had nothing to do with it.

I've seen VFTs over the Winter have their rhyzomes rot from being too wet. Usually it happened in trays that were recently heavily rained on, usually ones that were smaller, and often when the moss compacted or was too tight. When this happened the roots often were not rotted at all. It also seemed to only happen to a tiny percentage of them while others growing in the same conditions were fine.

What happens when roots rot is that the plant dries out. This is because the rotten roots or shed roots no longer absorb much water. It can happen in very wet conditions. The leaves and traps drying first makes them slightly brittle and later on they turn black but often not till the growth point in the rhyzome rots first. Does this sound like what you experienced?

idontlikeforms wrote:in inland CA you could never get away with no pools of water for the plants to sit in.

Matt wrote: That would depend on the type and size of the pot. A large pot with lots of moss in it will hold water for a long time, even in extremely hot and dry weather (like we have here in the summer). But you are correct that a small pot (3 or 4 inches) would not stand a chance in full sun, hot temperatures and dry winds. It would likely dry out in a matter of hours. During the summer, to avoid leaving plants sitting in water, I sometimes water twice a day when it's 100°F and the humidity is in the 20% range.

I don't doubt that large pots with a lot more moss in them will stay wet near the bottom for a while but I can't ship large pots and lots of moss and make a decent profit so I have to ship smaller pots just like my direct competitors do. I do sell larger pots as upgrades though and recommend them to customers who tell me they plan on growing their plants outdoors.

Matt wrote: Yes, that's another issue. And then another problem comes with watering when plants in the same tray are potted at different densities. Trying to keep all of the pots just moist is almost impossible without having to water each pot individually. Due to differences in how densely packed the moss is in each pot, some are soaking while others are nearly dry.

Next time you talk to me remind me to tell you about LFS chips. The company where your LFS moss originally came from in NZ makes dried chips of LFS. You place a plant between the two of them and put it in a pot/cell/plug. Then hydrate them and they expand around the plants. It might be something of interest to you but a different US supplier of them sells them, one I have to use once I move at the end of the year. They might be of use to you. Here's the exporter in NZ's webpage on them. http://besgrow.com/spagmoss

Matt wrote: Growing with LFS definitely seems to be more labor intensive and challenging, in my opinion, when compared to peat-based mixes. But the results with LFS are usually superior in terms of how quickly the plants grow to sale size when compared to peat-based mixes.

I don't doubt it, It's hard to not justify the extra work though when you see it generate income faster. Plus I dislike the peat and sand because they just seem dirty to me and rain splashes it around too. Whereas the moss stays in place when they get rained on.

Interesting stuff. My thoughts again lean toward the idea of trying a mix of 50/50 peat/sphagnum, or a third each of peat, sphagnum and perlite. This might give you the aerating/growing power of sphagnum with the forgiveness of peat/perlite. I'm only going to try this with a small portion of my plants, in case it turns out to be a disaster. Thanks again for all of the info. I continue to glean valuable knowledge from the veteran growers on this forum.

idontlikeforms wrote:I don't doubt that large pots with a lot more moss in them will stay wet near the bottom for a while but I can't ship large pots and lots of moss and make a decent profit so I have to ship smaller pots just like my direct competitors do. I do sell larger pots as upgrades though and recommend them to customers who tell me they plan on growing their plants outdoors.

Right, you certainly couldn't sell larger pots and operate in the same way you do now. But most hobby growers we sell to order plants bare root and pot them in large pots, which allows for easier growing and healthier flytraps.

idontlikeforms wrote:Next time you talk to me remind me to tell you about LFS chips.

OK, I'll do that. Thanks for the information! Those LFS chips (called "Hydroplanter" on the Besgrow.com site) look like they could save a lot of potting time for plants out of TC if they actually fill in the pot well enough.

idontlikeforms wrote:Plus I dislike the peat and sand because they just seem dirty to me and rain splashes it around too. Whereas the moss stays in place when they get rained on.

Right. We don't usually get very much rain here during the growing season; almost none in fact. But we still have quite a few plants outside right now and it has been raining the last couple of weeks and yes, it's nice to not have sand, perlite and peat all over the plants.

I just recently went to local Wal-Mart (I live near Jacksonville, FL) to buy perlite and they had it for less than $3 a bag. (I'll have to look at the amount on the bag, but it wasn't small)