FlytrapCare Carnivorous Plant Forums

dantt99 wrote:I think it's about time somebody do a side-by-side

I'm very seriously considering it...although I'm certainly not an amazing grower by any means, so I doubt I could really push the plants to the limit. Although maybe that would really be an overall better test for "the average grower."

Matt wrote:As mentioned above, I will do a controlled experiment if you send me some of your nice NZ LFS

Well if you want an amateur growth side to this experiment as well I'd be happy to have 2 similarly sized clones show up in my mail box If I go for this, I will however have to grow the plants in whatever watering conditions allow me to grow them outside unattended all day...

Matt wrote:Right, but they do use rooting hormone, which will have a similar effect.

I've seen plenty of VFTs that I bought from you with a good number of roots on them and very thick and spaghetti-like. Many of them came from the TC jars you sold me almost 2 years ago and had super skinny roots on them not long out of TC under lights for some time and stayed that way until they were fully sun hardened and then when I started selling them they had the usual spaghetti roots I'm accustomed to seeing on so many of the VFT that have been in may care for a while. I honestly don't know what the roots look like on a number of batches of giant VFTs I have growing out right now in full sun because I have not been picking out many of them to sell lately but I suspect when I check them to upload some more photos that I will once again see the usual spaghetti roots. Though they generally tend to be the thickest in Summertime and early Fall here.

Matt wrote: No, he hasn't really. He has taken large plants and potted them in pith (coir) and they grew well. But he has potted small plants and TC plants in pith and they didn't grow well at all. But he did try to make his pith mix equivalent to his peat mix in terms of water retention and consistency, so the difference in the media wasn't terribly significant in terms of physical properties with the exception that the pith dried out more (too) quickly on top, causing smaller plants to suffer. The higher pH may be to blame as well. Perhaps the high pH affects the smaller plants more.

I would suspect it's just the dryness that's the issue. From what I've seen small VFTs seem to like to be fairly wet and don't mind a good amount of wetness around their rhyzomes but larger VFTs don't seem to like it for long but do like their root tips in water still.

idontlikeforms wrote:Most of my larger VFts I have not kept and many of them were damaged last year in a heat wave. The year before I let some bigger ones I kept flower but they mostly exploded into little plants after they flowered. Not 100% sure why, I only have some theories about it, but my larger ones didn't do this last year.

Matt wrote:My theory is that it's because of the LFS Seriously though, I often had the same thing happen to my larger plants (exploding into lots of little plants after flowering) when I kept them too wet and before I started using peat with large grained sand.

It's more complicated than just they were grown in this or that media instead of another type and all 3 situations were actually different. I don't really want to get into them here right now as I'm pretty sure I figured each situation out and don't want to go in a different direction in this conversation explaining 3 different situations thoroughly.

idontlikeforms wrote:My point was never that VFTs can get bigger in LFS though. I don't personally believe they can. But I'm certain they regularly get thicker roots and that they can actually grow roots faster in LFS too.

Matt wrote:Ah, OK. Well, I don't have enough experience with growing in LFS to know if that's true or not and people don't often post photos of their flytraps roots, so I've not seen enough photos to confirm or negate that. But the photos you've shown of the flytraps growing in LFS seem to indicate that may be true, but I'd still like to see a few plants' roots that aren't recently out of TC or growing in potassium silicate but that are growing long term in LFS.

I can't show you any roots not grown without potassium silicate. I don't have any except new arrivals. I'm skeptical that it makes a lot of difference though in root thickness anyways. But this point is really irrelevant. I've seen them grown both with and without potassium silicate and the peat roots are always thinner. Matt you wanted to see thick roots that I was claiming my VFTs had in LFS and I showed you some. You want to see more now and no doubt I'll show you more of them to you and if that isn't good enough I suppose I could upload even more. Besides there is silica in your media too. Sand is mostly silica and it does in fact leach trace amounts of silica into the peat, same goes with perlite which is also mostly silica. It's the silica in potassium silicate that thickens the roots as well as leaves and stems of a plant for that matter. Does the silica from sand and peat make roots a lot thicker too? I doubt it. But no doubt it technically does a little. And most plants being fertilized with potassium silicate are being fertilized with much heavier doses of it than my VFTs and I've been told by a hydroponic grower that it does not substantially thicken old growth, only the new growth. I see the whole roots, old ones included, thicken in LFS.

idontlikeforms wrote:I believe that LFS is a better growing media overall than peat/sand or peat/perlite or 100% peat. These conclusions are based on my own personal observation seeing many plants growing in both of these medias and many times inspecting their roots.

Matt wrote:But if you overwater the plants in peat, which most people do, or you're not using 12 grit sand, then you will have poor to sub-optimal results growing flytraps in peat. You already said that you didn't know what grit sand was in the peat mix you used, right? Do you know what the ratio of peat to sand was? These things are very important and if you are coming to your conclusions without doing/knowing these things, then your conclusions may be erroneous.

They were in about 50/50 peat/sand. I don't know what grits they were in. Besides this Matt I've seen plenty of roots on VFTs from you and from Steve too and they are dangly, thin, and like a piece of string. Just like many VFTs I've seen elsewhere but on average better looking roots overall. Don't forget I've seen VFT roots grown in peat, peat/sand, peat/perlite from many sources and they are all thinner and more delicate than my LFS grown VFTs' roots and the same even goes for the AG3 LFS grown roots when they arrive. It's 100% consistent. So I don't see how your point here is really an issue. I suppose if someone wanted to they could simply choose not to believe me and all I can do then is stand by my claim.

idontlikeforms wrote:I go to the BACPS(Bay Area Carnivorous Plant Society) meetings and chat with other CP growers many of whom are old and retired and have grown CPs for decades and many of these old growers use LFS with their VFTs. They are not dogmatic about it. To them it is normal. They think it is a good media for VFTs.

Matt wrote:Right, and every long time grower I've seen growing flytraps, including Peter D'Amato's plants, grows them sitting in water all the time which can be easily proven to be detrimental to the health of a flytrap. Just because something has been done for decades doesn't necessarily mean that it's good. Many people seem to simply do what others do instead of questioning things and experimenting. I did this too initially when I started growing flytraps (just did what everyone else was doing, growing them in peat/perlite and left them sitting in water) and I was really skeptical about Steve's peat/sand mix and "minimal" watering scheme because I saw my flytraps grow well in peat sitting in water all the time. It wasn't until I tried it for myself, and have honed my skills growing flytraps in the peat/sand mix over the last 5 years, that I now see how superior a mix it is when coupled with appropriate watering.

Well one could say the same thing about growing in LFS. It's not just what media you use that determines how well your VFT grows but how you take care of the plant with that given media and the logistics involved in growing VFTs in LFS are not exactly the same as the logistics involved in growing VFTs in PSP. If someone is watering a VFT in a way that doesn't work well in LFS and then switches to growing their VFT in PSP and waters it in a way that works well with PSP and they see their VFT start growing faster and getting larger they may then deduce that PSP is better than LFS but if they weren't taking care of their VFT in a way that works well in LFS in the first place they may be wrong in their conclusion.

Matt wrote: I think 95slvrZ28 brings up a very good point about the difference in our growing goals and the bearing it has on our different perspectives. We (FlytrapStore and JoelsCarnivorousPlants) have completely different business/growing models. Steve and I prefer to grow plants for many months, often times for more than one season, to get them to an impressive size before selling them. We have a very slow turn around time, choosing to focus on quality instead of quantity, and we probably don't sell even 20% of the flytraps you do now since you've been selling on Amazon/eBay and drop shipping. I would guess that it's rare for you to keep a flytrap more than a season (perhaps more than a few weeks) unless it simply doesn't look good enough to sell for some reason. So our growing goals are actually quite different.

The vast majority of the VFTs I sell are in my care for a minimum of 3 months. They have all or most of their current leaves/traps and roots developed in my care. This is because I have very high standards for what I deem saleworthy, or at least I honestly believe this to be the case. Most of the VFTs I buy are not sun hardened but I don't sell them, except during the Wintertime unless they are fully hardened to full sun and this usually takes 3 months to do. Occasionally I get some VFTs from some source or another that is more hardened off when I buy it and I can turn around and sell it in 6 or 8 weeks but it rarely happens, unfortunately.

When I buy VFTs fresh out of TC they usually stay in my care for 8 months or more before I resell them. This is what Steve and you have and you two hold them for longer because of this as well. The bigger difference I think is that Steve and you are selling to a higher percentage of CP hobbyists than I do and you have a lot of clones being sold as the clone that they are. Whereas I have probably 85-90% beginner customers and am selling mostly typical VFTs or sometimes even named clones but as typicals and much less named clones as the clone they are.

Matt wrote: Additionally, the LFS is a key part to your business strategy. If you changed to a peat/sand medium, you'd have to charge far more for shipping and pass that cost onto the customer, which would likely cause a large drop in sales.

This is quite true and also like Steve said it is actually easier to work with as well, something that's important when you have to employ other people and train them. It's the efficiency of using it and the lower expenses involved that is the real reason why I use it and just find its effects on root development to be a nice additional benefit.

Matt wrote: This discussion has got me motivated enough to do an experiment. I think I'd like to plant a few similar sized plants from a particular clone in each of the two medias and let them grow this season (or longer) and see what the results are. Any chance you can send me some of that nice New Zealand LFS, Joel? I do have some NZ LFS myself, but yours looks superior to what I have. I will try to keep the flytraps in the LFS watered as you described (bottom of the pot in just a bit of water) and I'll water the ones in the peat/sand/perlite mix as I normally do. I'll snap some "before potting" photos of the roots and plants and then (try to) make regular updates throughout the year.

Sure.

Matt wrote: Ah, I see...but you can use small pots with peat/sand as well, right? So I'm not sure why that would be an advantage LFS would have over peat/sand.

Yes i could but there seems a possible benefit to having a thicker more compact root system grown in LFS compared to that grown in a small pot of peat mix. The roots would be able to support a bigger plant per pot size, or atleast thats the impression i got from reading some of idontlikeforums posts. This being true it would give an edge to using LFS in very compact grows.

95slvrZ28 wrote:Well if you want an amateur growth side to this experiment as well I'd be happy to have 2 similarly sized clones show up in my mail box If I go for this, I will however have to grow the plants in whatever watering conditions allow me to grow them outside unattended all day...

I will send you a couple of the clones that I'm planning on using for the experiment Blake. I don't know if you can leave LFS outside unattended all day. We'll need to get more input from Joel as to how to grow the plants in LFS. I think we'll need to leave them sitting in water in the LFS, because on a 100+ degree day here in Ashland with humidity in the low 20% range, LFS would dry out almost instantly I'd guess unless it were sitting in water.

idontlikeforms wrote:I would suspect it's just the dryness that's the issue.

There is definitely more than dryness at play causing the plants to not grow well in the coir because it happens to plants under lights right out of TC that are kept wet too.

idontlikeforms wrote:They were in about 50/50 peat/sand. I don't know what grits they were in.

And how did you water them? Were they left to sit in water all the time? Or was the soil allowed to go to just moist before watering again? This is key also.

idontlikeforms wrote:Besides this Matt I've seen plenty of roots on VFTs from you and from Steve too and they are dangly, thin, and like a piece of string. Just like many VFTs I've seen elsewhere but on average better looking roots overall. Don't forget I've seen VFT roots grown in peat, peat/sand, peat/perlite from many sources and they are all thinner and more delicate than my LFS grown VFTs' roots and the same even goes for the AG3 LFS grown roots when they arrive. It's 100% consistent. So I don't see how your point here is really an issue. I suppose if someone wanted to they could simply choose not to believe me and all I can do then is stand by my claim.

I think you and I are making two different points here. I'm not denying the fact that the roots in LFS may be thicker (though I can't say I've seen enough evidence to completely confirm that fact), and that seems to be the only point you're trying to make at the moment. The fundamental point I'm trying to make here is that plants in peat/sand will grow larger overall (including having a larger, healthier root system), if properly watered, than they will in LFS. And thus that peat/sand/perlite is a superior growing medium to LFS.

And thanks for sending me some LFS! If you could, also give me a suggestion for pot sizes, watering schedule/technique and anything else that might be worth knowing about growing flytraps in LFS.

0rmus wrote:Yes i could but there seems a possible benefit to having a thicker more compact root system grown in LFS compared to that grown in a small pot of peat mix. The roots would be able to support a bigger plant per pot size, or atleast thats the impression i got from reading some of idontlikeforums posts.

I think that the roots on the plants Joel posted photos of are mostly due to the rooting hormone AG3 uses with their TC. I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on those photos because I've seen the same results in pure peat moss with plants from AG3.

the posts are becoming more complex!

ShaneF wrote:

parker679 wrote:

ShaneF wrote:I believe you are wrong here. The finer sand clumps when it gets wet because of it's size. The the smaller grit sand doesn't clump much (12 grade and down).

How can you say I'm wrong and follow it up by making the same statement I did? Or at least just a rehash of what I said. I said particle size matters because too small and there are no air pockets, and you say that's wrong and that large particles are better. Furthermore how do you know there are no air pockets? Air is a gas so the pockets don't have to be large enough for you to see, they just need to be able to fill and drain in order to keep refreshing the oxygen.

Or do you mean there are no large air pockets? And if that's the case refer back to when I said if your goal is greater surface area than what you want is more smaller air pockets. Again, my statements were just a reply to a single part of the earlier post, specifically the claim that larger air pockets meant more surface area which is categorically false. I was also referring to his comment that type of sand didn't make much difference unless it could form air pockets better. Well if your goal if surface area of the air pockets then YES, type of sand can have a huge advantage.

idontlikeforms wrote:I don't see why different types of peat or sand would make much difference unless some types somehow are less prone to clumping or form air pockets better.

Smaller Grit sand is larger sand grains. I'm saying the larger the grains the better the drainage but this is not the case with aeration. The peat packs itself around the grains. But larger pockets for aeration would be better.

There's our problem, it seems we've been misunderstanding each other. What you're referring to is mesh size, which is also called a grit rating, where a smaller number equals a larger grain size. I was using "grit" to mean the particles themselves, so by smaller grit I literally meant smaller piece of sand. I'll use particle size from now on since grit size can be ambiguous.

Matt wrote:

parker679 wrote:All in all this was an interesting read. My only sticking point is this statement above. Surface area is increased by having more small pockets rather than fewer large pockets, just like how granular sugar dissolves more readily in water than a large piece of sugar crystal because the surface area available is greate[...]if your goal is to have the greatest surface area of soil exposed to air than you want many small pockets not large pockets. But if your goal is to have the greatest volume of air in the soil than you're right about wanting larger pockets.

Great point parker! I love your scientific mind What is your background anyway? You seem to have some sort of training to think analytically/scientifically.

Thanks! No official training, though I've always been a science nerd. I'm just a guy that loves to learn new things and am particularly good at analyzing/critical thinking.

Matt wrote:There is definitely more than dryness at play causing the plants to not grow well in the coir because it happens to plants under lights right out of TC that are kept wet too.

Maybe a high PH is an issue too then. I was under the impression from reading Steve's posts on pith here and seeing his example photo of the two pots full of VFTs side by side both here and in the Terraforums thread that he was stating he had good results growing VFTs in pith and that he noticed them growing faster in it too. Of course I'm assuming that you're simply related what Steve told you, perhaps since those posts were made? But your information here is a bit confusing to me since this doesn't seem to be what Steve was saying some time ago. Personally I would not mind if Steve or yourself clarified what exactly his observations were in the long run growing VFTs in pith. The photo he used as an example gave me the impression that the VFTs were smaller when he started them off in pith and grew overtime in it to a larger size.

idontlikeforms wrote:They were in about 50/50 peat/sand. I don't know what grits they were in.

Matt wrote: And how did you water them? Were they left to sit in water all the time? Or was the soil allowed to go to just moist before watering again? This is key also.

IIRC the pots were 3.5 inches deep. They were sold to me in 1020 flats. I put about 1/4th to 3/8ths of an inch of water in these trays when I watered them. The water level would go down unevenly between the 6 to 8 trays they were in. With some it would be completely gone and the bottom of the trays would be only moist with others there was still sometimes a film of water on the bottom. There was even a little bit of a puddle still occasionally too in a few of the trays before I readded water to them sometimes. To me the peat/sand mix did seem to dry a little in between waterings but I assumed that it was still fairly wet on the bottom of the pots, even if I didn't actually see this, because I've seen that PSP tends to do this even when the soil looks a bit dry on top of the pots.

Matt wrote:I think you and I are making two different points here. I'm not denying the fact that the roots in LFS may be thicker (though I can't say I've seen enough evidence to completely confirm that fact), and that seems to be the only point you're trying to make at the moment. The fundamental point I'm trying to make here is that plants in peat/sand will grow larger overall (including having a larger, healthier root system), if properly watered, than they will in LFS. And thus that peat/sand/perlite is a superior growing medium to LFS.

I see. I'm disinclined to believe that they can get larger in PSP or have an overall healthier roots system. I have not seen this to be the case but I've seen VFTs grown in LFS for some time but have not seen VFTs grown in PSP for a long time. My bias here though is that I don't tend to view one media as inherently being vastly superior than another type of media overall. I'm more inclined to believe that VFTs can grow well in a number of different medias and that they may indeed need to be grown differently in each media for it to work well but that this can be done. I think that wetness in the right places in the rhyzosphere is important, aeration is important, PH is important, and mineral content is important but that if all these factors are in a healthy balance that other medias can be made to work well. I think the LFS typically aerates the roots better than PSP and depending on how it is being watered, with its given environment and size of the VFT in it this winds up usually being better than PSP and this is why the roots grow quicker in it. If another media can get these 4 things in good balance I suspect the roots would grow quicker in it as well and even get thicker in it as well too, just as well as with LFS.

Matt wrote: And thanks for sending me some LFS! If you could, also give me a suggestion for pot sizes, watering schedule/technique and anything else that might be worth knowing about growing flytraps in LFS.

Let me know here or in a PM or an email how much you think you'll need.

If you are using pure LFS I would put small VFTs or VFTs right out of TC in a 3 inch deep pot and put the water level at 1 inch deep when you water them and don't allow the water level to go below 1/4th of a inch. Once they are bigger the water level can be 3/4ths of an inch deep when they are watered and can be allowed to recede almost completely as long as the moss does not get substantially drier. Once they are about 3 yr old size from seed, roughly 3 inch diameter plants with 3/4ths of inch size traps or larger they should be moved to a deeper pot, about 5-8 inches deep. They shouldn't be left in 3 inch deep pots at this size as it may stress them a little, make them make fewer and shorter roots or even cause them to get root rot. The depth of the rhyzome is particularly an issue too. Sometimes it not only gets larger and thus grows deeper into the pot but also the LFS compacts a bit if it was too loosely packed in the pot in the first place and the rhyzome can then actually sink into the pot making it even closer to the water level. The LFS can also be too tightly packed which also leads to poorer root development as well and can even make the plant more susceptible to root rot. When you initially pack the moss in the pot it should not take a lot of effort to push it all the way into the pot but should take a little effort to do so.

When you move the larger VFTs to larger pots the water level should be about 1/4th of the way up the pot if the pot is about 5 inches deep but if it is taller the water level should be about 1/3rd of the way up the pot then when you add water. The water level should never be allowed to dry out and if the middle of the pot is getting pretty dry in between waterings then you are allowing it to get too dry. When you are using the larger pots for larger VFTs with LFS you should top water them to better rehydrate the top and middle part of the part, which of course will dry some before being rewatered.

If your VFTs are cold like late Fall-early Spring for many growers, and I would think yourself too, then the water levels should be kept a little lower than what is recommended above until they are warmer.

Yes with LFS the water levels go down faster but you also typically have higher water levels when you water them to go down from. I don't personally see how this is more work or less easy a setup than PSP but maybe someone else has a different opinion. You can also add small grained perlite and I would think even sand to this mix but I'm skeptical they will make much of a difference until the LFS starts breaking down quite a bit and if perlite is used it should be thoroughly rinsed before being added as fresh NZ LFS does not heavily affect PH until it ages a bit but fresh unrinsed or poorly rinsed perlite does raise the PH and may overpower the effects of PH lowering from the fresh NZ LFS.

If you do this I think you will see small VFTs and VFTs fresh out of TC actually do better than small VFTs planted in pure peat or PSP. They seem to really like the wetness LFS provides out of TC. For larger VFTs I don't think you will see them ultimately get bigger in LFS but I think you will see a well developed root system with thicker roots. Of course they will need to be in good lighting to grow well and so if the PSP group gets better lighting than the LFS group it is not reasonable to expect the LFS group to grow better overall then.

0rmus wrote:Yes i could but there seems a possible benefit to having a thicker more compact root system grown in LFS compared to that grown in a small pot of peat mix. The roots would be able to support a bigger plant per pot size, or atleast thats the impression i got from reading some of idontlikeforums posts.

Matt wrote: I think that the roots on the plants Joel posted photos of are mostly due to the rooting hormone AG3 uses with their TC. I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on those photos because I've seen the same results in pure peat moss with plants from AG3.

I don't doubt that hormones are affecting the roots but the 12 jars of VFTs you sold me 2 years ago had very spindly roots out of TC and they stayed relatively spindly until they were later on put in full sun, which I suspected was due to the affects of hormones as well but they eventually likewise made spaghetti roots and kept on making thicker roots from then on. And I've had some of the King Henrys I showed here earlier I've had since mid-Fall and they still have thick roots. They have not gone down in thickness. If you're trying to say that the hormones from TC have made their roots thicker by the time they arrived, I suspect this is part of why they are as thick as they are when they arrive but they grow even thicker after awhile and keep on doing so, which I showed in the two batches of Dentes. I've seen trays of AG3 VFTs in peat arrive with super spindly and delicate roots and some arrive in peat with thicker roots albeit not as thick as when they showed up in LFS. I don't know what would cause this kind of size discrepancy in the different batches of peat other than hormones myself.

idontlikeforms wrote:Of course I'm assuming that you're simply related what Steve told you, perhaps since those posts were made?

Steve made those posts prior to potting any small flytraps in the coir. When I went down to visit a couple of weeks ago, he showed me a side by side comparison of plants potted out of TC at the same time in peat and coir and the ones in coir looked awful.

idontlikeforms wrote:But your information here is a bit confusing to me since this doesn't seem to be what Steve was saying some time ago.

I don't recall exactly what Steve posted a while ago, but I know that he showed two pots side by side (one peat and one coir) and the plants in the coir media were growing better. That was still very early on in his experiments with coir.

idontlikeforms wrote:My bias here though is that I don't tend to view one media as inherently being vastly superior than another type of media overall.

That's very true and I agree with that completely. And I don't think that I would use the word "vastly" to describe the superiority of one potting mix to another. Healthy flytraps can be grown in many variations of sphangum, peat, live sphagnum, coir, etc. They all work quite well and I've seen impressive plants growing in all of those medias. But you've stated that you believe LFS to be superior to peat/sand and I disagree with that statement. The largest flytraps, by a large margin actually, I've ever seen in my life were growing in peat/sand mixes.

idontlikeforms wrote:Let me know here or in a PM or an email how much you think you'll need.

I'd like to do 5 pots of LFS and 5 pots of peat/sand, growing alongside each other in different trays so that I can water them individually as needed. The pots will be 5 inches deep and 2.5 inches across. However much LFS you think I'll need to fill 5 or 6 pots that size would be great.

idontlikeforms wrote:Once they are about 3 yr old size from seed, roughly 3 inch diameter plants with 3/4ths of inch size traps or larger they should be moved to a deeper pot, about 5-8 inches deep.

I was planning on starting with 3-year old sized plants because the main thing I'm curious about is which medium is best for growing flytraps optimally to achieve the largest size possible (i.e. the superior medium for flytraps). I suppose I could add another pot or two to the experiment and do some smaller ones as well. Maybe enough LFS for 6 or 7 pots then?

idontlikeforms wrote:When you initially pack the moss in the pot it should not take a lot of effort to push it all the way into the pot but should take a little effort to do so.

OK, got it!

idontlikeforms wrote:When you move the larger VFTs to larger pots the water level should be about 1/4th of the way up the pot if the pot is about 5 inches deep

Wow, that's a lot of water! About 1.25 inches of water in the tray at all times if the pots are 5 inches deep?

idontlikeforms wrote:If you do this I think you will see small VFTs and VFTs fresh out of TC actually do better than small VFTs planted in pure peat or PSP.

I wasn't planning on trying the LFS for TC plants, but I might give it a try!

idontlikeforms wrote:They seem to really like the wetness LFS provides out of TC.

I'll bet. I keep plants out of TC quite wet for the first 2 weeks until they can start putting down some roots. After that I start ratcheting back on the water over the course of a couple of months until they get a fairly well developed root system and don't have any trouble staying hydrated when the soil is just moist.

idontlikeforms wrote:For larger VFTs I don't think you will see them ultimately get bigger in LFS but I think you will see a well developed root system with thicker roots.

I'm excited to find out what I'll see

idontlikeforms wrote:Of course they will need to be in good lighting to grow well and so if the PSP group gets better lighting than the LFS group it is not reasonable to expect the LFS group to grow better overall then.

Right, I'll grow them side by side in the greenhouse and/or outdoors.

idontlikeforms wrote:the 12 jars of VFTs you sold me 2 years ago had very spindly roots out of TC and they stayed relatively spindly until they were later on put in full sun

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing. Plants growing under lights make very thin roots. Plants in the greenhouse make thinner roots than plants growing out in full sun. Good lighting definitely has a lot to do with root growth...and overall health of the plant for that matter.

I'm excited to experiment further with growing in LFS now. I think this will be a good learning experiment for me and perhaps it will result in a change in how I do certain things with flytraps, such as potting them out of TC into LFS initially and then moving them to peat later in life...or maybe I'll switch to using LFS all the time! Who knows?!

Chipi3s wrote:We should start a new thread in a different category so we can post updates of the results. ect.. Post link if you do.

Yep, will do that when I get the experiment started.

Matt wrote:I will send you a couple of the clones that I'm planning on using for the experiment Blake. I don't know if you can leave LFS outside unattended all day. We'll need to get more input from Joel as to how to grow the plants in LFS.

Fantastic! I will have to go buy some LFS from the hardware store for this exercise. It probably isn't as nice as the NZ moss, but I think it should get the job done.

Matt wrote:I think we'll need to leave them sitting in water in the LFS, because on a 100+ degree day here in Ashland with humidity in the low 20% range, LFS would dry out almost instantly I'd guess unless it were sitting in water.

Yes, with the watering input that was given from Joel I think that I will likely need to keep it in standing water and probably top water once every few days to keep the moisture up. Especially considering days here can get to 100+ with single digit humidity and with dry winds (yikes...).

Joel, could you post a picture of the watering trays you would use with a 5" pot? I'm wondering what sort of water volume they hold to know what I'm shooting for here...

Coir used in a growing medium

Since my name and coir has been brought up a few times in this discussion, I'll add a few comments.

Many Forum members know that I've been experimenting with coir (coconut husk pith) for about 2.5 years now as a primary or secondary ingredient in a growing medium for Venus Flytraps. Here are some notes and conclusions so far--

Coir must be soaked and desalinated before use. Every one of the several brands/sources of coir I've tried is much too high in soluble material to use for Venus Flytraps. However, once the soluble mineral salts are almost all removed, coir makes a fine ingredient for a growing medium. Like practically anything, it has its pros and cons.

I found that to be roughly equivalent to the water retention and drying time of a typical sphagnum peat moss mix, I had to use about 2 parts dry, fluffy coir to 1 part silica sand, whereas with sphagnum peat moss I use 1 part sphagnum to 1 part sand, a 50/50% mix.

For more mature and established Venus Flytraps, a coir medium of 12 parts coir to 5 parts silica sand works well. The plants grow well and often have more growth and better root systems than Venus Flytraps grown in a sphagnum peat moss mix.

However, for very small plants, the physical properties of coir present a challenge and make it difficult for seedlings or small divisions to become anchored and established. Coir is very springy and spongy and resists compaction. This is a good thing in most circumstances, but as coir dries, its springiness raises the top layer of the coir mix, pushing tiny plants upward. This makes it challenging for the plants to establish their roots. Coir also dries out much faster than a sphagnum peat mix at its surface; this makes it challenging for tiny plants to keep themselves adequately hydrated (watered).

So these two properties of coir, its springiness and its tendency to dry fast on its surface in a coir/sand mix, are detrimental to the development of seedlings and very small plants, while not harmful at all to more mature plants with larger rhizomes and deeper roots.

Coir is not quite as acidic as sphagnum peat moss, and I've noticed that there are quite a few fungi (including a powdery light green fungus and an ultra slimy, gooey, globby fungus) that can grow on the surface of a coir mix that find a sphagnum peat moss based mix hostile. This is one point in favor of sphagnum peat.

Coir, even when desalinated initially, still carries some soluble minerals for a while that dissolve slowly over time, and this can build up in soil that is not periodically flushed and cause some of the traps to become unresponsive. The Flytraps still grow well and their general health is not harmed, and the problem is not progressive, which is to say it doesn't get worse and worse, but only happens occasionally or rarely.

I've planted many hundreds of Venus Flytraps in a coir mix, and the death rate has been low, no greater than the death rate for various reasons in a sphagnum peat moss mix, except among very tiny plants, where the death rate is increased in a coir mix for reasons mentioned above. In general, for very tiny plants, a coir medium merely sets them back a year or year and a half in growth by making them struggle so much to become established, but generally does not kill them.

Now, for seedlings and very tiny plants, I use a traditional sphagnum peat moss mix. For older plants I'm using a mix of coir and sphagnum peat moss in a medium with silica sand, because I like the coir very much for the physical properties it has and adds to the mix. Coir aggressively incorporates air into the soil, resists compaction, and absorbs a tremendous amount of water. Coir used by itself would be too wet all the time and dry too slowly, in my opinion.

While I'm using coir and sphagnum peat moss together, I'm now experimenting with other sphagnum-free mixes. Currently I'm trying a Venus Flytrap in a mix of 1 part (by volume) of silica sand, 1 part small bark pieces (evergreen "orchid bark") and one part chopped pine needles. This mix drains and dries a little too quickly, so I plan to add 1 part coir to the mix to improve water retention and slow the drying time.

My experience with pure long-fiber sphagnum moss is that in my hot and dry climate, it dries much too fast, endangering the plants regularly for lack of hydration. If one compensates by allowing the pots to sit in water, the pure long-fiber sphagnum stays much too wet all the time, which in my view encourages fungal infection and rot. So I personally don't use long-fiber sphagnum moss much, although I think it would be a fine ingredient in a medium when mixed with other ingredients, and is reported to work well for others in their particular climates and environments and with their care regimen.

95slvrZ28 wrote:Fantastic! I will have to go buy some LFS from the hardware store for this exercise. It probably isn't as nice as the NZ moss, but I think it should get the job done.

Yeah, I'm sure it will. The clone I'm planning on using for the experiment is a large-trapped flytrap with dente-like teeth that was tentatively named "FTS Dente" a few years ago. I think you may already grow one (I sent a few out to a few members here). I have quite a few of them and Steve and I decided not to formally name and distribute it, so we've been selling them as seed-growns. I have perhaps a dozen or more that will make nice candidates to be used in the experiment. They're of "young" size and should grow well this year and should be "young adult" or "mature" by the end of the growing season barring any setbacks.

95slvrZ28 wrote:Yes, with the watering input that was given from Joel I think that I will likely need to keep it in standing water and probably top water once every few days to keep the moisture up. Especially considering days here can get to 100+ with single digit humidity and with dry winds (yikes...).

Right. We don't get the winds here in Oregon during the summer that you all do there in Colorado, but we do get the extreme heat (over 100°F) and extremely low humidity (days in the teens) for quite a few weeks in the July/August time frame. I imagine the LFS will be challenging to keep hydrated during the days if its not left sitting in at least an inch of water starting in the morning.

95slvrZ28 wrote:Joel, could you post a picture of the watering trays you would use with a 5" pot? I'm wondering what sort of water volume they hold to know what I'm shooting for here...

Good idea!

Matt wrote: I think you may already grow one (I sent a few out to a few members here).

I would be growing one if my medium I potted too many of my pants in hadn't been ~1300ppm Unfortunately I caught that mistake too late and lost all of my plants aside from the most recent sets and my H. Minor (Heli's are not resilient my ass!) ...I should have just got a TDS meter sooner, I had always just thought it was the harsh CO sun...oh well, live and learn I suppose. It's how we become better growers as long as we correct our mistakes. I have a window sill full of happy plants that are about to get transferred outside now that the threat of snow has finally passed here in CO.

Matt wrote: They're of "young" size and should grow well this year and should be "young adult" or "mature" by the end of the growing season barring any setbacks.

That sounds about the perfect size to get started. This way we can see the differences between the mediums between rooting in, initial growth, and established growth/vigor.

Matt wrote:I imagine the LFS will be challenging to keep hydrated during the days if its not left sitting in at least an inch of water starting in the morning.

Yes, this is my biggest concern with LFS in a particularly dry climate as well. Although according to Joel we should keep the plants in standing water at all times and have supplemental top watering to ensure the top of the plant stays moist too. It will probably take some tuning for the watering for each of our climates. I'm planning on moving from my initial growing window to a sunnier window to outside. For me this will ratchet up sun intensity and heat in a few steps so I know the medium better without risking the plants.

Matt...Perhaps we should move our last post or two to a new thread (with your magical admin powers of course) that's a bit more concerned with our experiment as opposed to the pros/cons of the potting media in question.

Has anyone tried to grow these little monsters using aeroponics?



Anyone?