FlytrapCare Carnivorous Plant Forums

Hello,

I have a big problem and I hope someone is able to help me. I try to grow some sarracenias from a seed. I started two years ago.

Let me describe it year by year. I bought a mix of sarracenia seeds two years ago. It was a small mix - only about 35 seeds. I stratified and sowed them. 27 of them started growing fine and only one died later. It was caused by some mold I haven't noticed on time. They are quite big right now and they are going through their first dormancy. So, the first attempt was quite successful.

A year ago, I bought about 300 seeds. Similarly, they were stratified and then sowed. Around 250 of them sprouted, so I was quite happy with that result. I repotted them when they were bigger. And after two or three months after that something bad started to happen. They started to dying, one by one. It didn't happen at the same time, it took around six months. I lost around 200 of them, only ~50 are still alive and I do not know why. No signs of fungus. Acid peat moss and perlite, only clean and soft water. Always kept wet. I tried to repot, also I tried peat moss from different vendors, even I tried to wash it. And they are dying suddenly. Their leaves become brown and dry just within a day or two. No clue why. I even checked their roots - they are white and nice, sometimes a bit brownish in the upper part of the root, but only a bit. These ones which survived look nice and they are quite big - from 5 to 15 cm and they look healthy.

This year I have even more seeds. I bought some of them, also I crossed a few plants and hopefully created some nice crosses. I sowed first batch of my seeds about 2 months ago. One cross sprouted and there are around 30 baby plants right now. But, I checked them today and four of them are dying. They developed two initial leaves and one pitcher and started dying. Exactly the same pattern as a year before. No signs of anything wrong and they are just dying.

Is such bad survival rate normal? What am I doing wrong? I am trying to do everything in exactly the same manner as two years ago. I sow them in pots - 1 cm of pure peat moss and the rest is a mix of perlite with peat moss. Pots sit in about 1-2 cm of water. They are under lights for 16 hours every day (mix of full spectrum and cold white power LEDs).

I would be grateful for any ideas? A lot of new seedlings started to sprout and I do not want to lose them, especially that I have sowed some nice crosses and I would really love to see them in their adult forms.

I had something similar happen, but not on that large of a scale. Some pics would help. What I went through was bad media. Not sure which media it was but once I changed it, checked PPM and pH levels to make sure they were acceptable and repotted I was off and running.. Be sure whatever media you are using is cleaned thoroughly.

Once they have germinated, they are generally bullet proof. If they are dying it has got to be the media or the water, or if indoors too close to the lights? how old was the peat? is there any chance it is breaking down and releasing nutrients? Its not Miracle Grow perlite is it?
The only other thing i can think of is how are you keeping them, indoors or outdoors? and what are the temperature ranges?

Cheers
Steve

So in re visiting this, do you by chance have a PPM and/or a pH tester? You can purchase Vivosun's set on Amazon for ~$15.00 or so. It was not until then that I knew where my problem was. I currently have several hundred Sarrs germinating and definitely do not want to see the same thing happen. Do you wash your media prior to using it? Is it store bought mix or are you mixing your own. I was using a mix of perlite, LFSM, peat and silica sand. I believe it was In The Swamp that suggested trying just 2 of the mixes instead of 4. I washed all my media thoroughly and then tested each type before use. I settled on 50:50 Peat and LFSM. Seems to be working thus far but I learned a valuable lesson. Do not buy pre mixed soil, clean all ingredients and test before use. I stopped the perlite due to it molding on me too quickly.

Thank you for all your replies! I do really appreciate them

Jedikinigit wrote:I'm far from an expert, but with the number dying it sounds like a potting issue, probably something contaminated. Maybe a bad batch of perlite or something that you consistently used on all of them. Water would be an obvious culprit but it sounds like you checked that. If it is a city supply and you're lucky enough to be under 100 normally maybe the water plant had an issue for some period of time or brought in a new source. I'd be checking water everytime I used it and consider making up some pots, saturate them, and then check the water.

Yes, there is definitely something wrong. Water is fine, I am 100% sure about that. I use fresh rain water, but only during spring and summer. Currently, I use demineralized water for the seedlings only, it is less than 50 ppm (I borrowed a ppm meter and tested it a few times, the results were always good). I live in a village and tap water is unfortunately not soft enough, so I am not risking with it.

Regarding the peat moss, it basically looks good. It is of light brown color when not wet, but it quickly becomes very dark when it sits in water. It is acidic (I tested it with a pH-meter) - the pH value is around 4 - 4.5.

The perlite isn't super white to be honest, it is a bit yellow, but it is the best one I can get on a local market (I live in Poland btw). I always wash it before use. And I have been using it for at least two - three years for other plants like adult sarracenias and flytraps and I haven't observed any problems, at least for them.

andynorth wrote:I had something similar happen, but not on that large of a scale. Some pics would help. What I went through was bad media. Not sure which media it was but once I changed it, checked PPM and pH levels to make sure they were acceptable and repotted I was off and running.. Be sure whatever media you are using is cleaned thoroughly.

Yes, as already mentioned above, PPM and pH levels are fine. I basically try to wash the media with pure water a few times. I will post some pics soon.

steve booth wrote:Once they have germinated, they are generally bullet proof. If they are dying it has got to be the media or the water, or if indoors too close to the lights? how old was the peat? is there any chance it is breaking down and releasing nutrients? Its not Miracle Grow perlite is it?
The only other thing i can think of is how are you keeping them, indoors or outdoors? and what are the temperature ranges?

Cheers
Steve

They are definitely not too close to lights (around 30-40 cm, depending on a particular pot). And the lights are fine, I guess. Those which are healthy have some nice red and dark colors on their leaves. They are kept indoors. The temperature is around 21-22 degrees Celsius. Also, I use COB LEDs attached to some CPU radiators with active cooling, so there is some air movement that should help to avoid fungus and mold. And indeed, I do not see mold or any other fungus on the surface of pots. The peat is around 2-3 years old and it is kept only slightly damp. It is not too dark, so I guess it is not breaking down. Also, according to its label, it does not contain any nutrients or fertilizers. What is a bit strange, there is information that it can contain less than 1 g/l NaCl, so it is quite a lot, that's why I am washing it. I mix perlite and peat alone, I do not buy ready made mixes.

Imagine my pain when I repotted around 250 small nice sarracenias with care and the majority of them died :/

I am not sure if it is somehow related, but 95% of germinated atropurpureas are alive and look good, some of them even have two or three rhizomes and very long roots (twice as a height of a pot), even if they are less than 10 cm tall. Similarly for mooreis, but they have just one rhizome and they are a bit taller. On the other hand, almost all of cupreas died, only one is still alive and looks bad.

To summarize:

• water is definitely fine (less than 50 ppm),
• I suspect it is either peat moss or perlite, or both - they may be somehow contaminated, but I am curious with what. All of adult plants (sarracenias and flytraps) do not have any problems with it. I believe seedlings are much more sensitive and do not have enough roots to somehow handle issues with the media,
• I believe growing conditions (artificial light, temperature, air movement) are fine, I have some seedlings and flytraps there two years ago and they were happy,
• I know that some people use Maxsea or Osmocote for seedlings, but I am not doing it, I am not experienced enough

Next steps:

• I am going to order other peat moss and perlite from the Internet and I will repot pretty much every single seedling that is still alive from the affected batch. Also, I am going to sow new seeds on the new media. Unfortunately, I have already sowed a lot of them and tens of them are sprouting right now, so I do not know how to transplant them, but I hope I will get some idea soon
• I will post some pics once I get new media - I want to show you roots of affected plants, but I do not want to stress them out before I get the media

I suspected the media even two - three months ago, but I repotted some of them to other peat and perlite and it didn't help. However, that peat moss looked quite dark, so I guess that was not a good choice either.

One more time - thank you so much for your replies Thanks to you I am convinced that there is something wrong with the media. I need to save as many seedlings as possible.

By any chance, could that be caused by humic acids? I have just noticed some black buildup on surface of some pots. Some pots that are touching one another are even glued by it. Also, moss started growing in some pots and I see black discolorations on it. Looks like humic acid to me. But I am not sure if it can affect sarracenia seedlings.

At this point I would say anything is possible. I would do a complete change of media, pots and anything else I could think of to resolve the issue.

If you do repot the seedlings left alive into new media (which by the sound of the black build up is necessary) may I suggest getting some Sphagnum (live is better than dead) and wrapping that round the roots, like a plug, as you plant them. This will keep the roots wet and the Sphagnum is well known for its antiseptic ''cleansing'' properties.
Also top water the plants so if there is any contamination it goes down and out of the medium, diluting and washing out any contamination.
Good Luck!!
Cheers
Steve

I have some good news. I ordered sphagnum peat moss and perlite in two different sources. I got a package from the first one today. The peat moss looks cool and smells nice. Also, the perlite is super white. Both look way better than the old media. The only thing that could be better is fraction of the perlite - it could have been a bit smaller, but still I think I can use it.

I will wait till the second one is delivered (it should happen within a day or two) and I will compare them and pick the better looking one.

steve booth wrote:If you do repot the seedlings left alive into new media (which by the sound of the black build up is necessary) may I suggest getting some Sphagnum (live is better than dead) and wrapping that round the roots, like a plug, as you plant them. This will keep the roots wet and the Sphagnum is well known for its antiseptic ''cleansing'' properties.
Also top water the plants so if there is any contamination it goes down and out of the medium, diluting and washing out any contamination.
Good Luck!!
Cheers
Steve

Regarding sphagnum, I think these plants are too small to do it. Also, I do not have a shop where I can find live sphagnum of good quality. I bought a bit in summer and it was full of pests, so I had to throw it away. I have some dry sphagnum, but still, I think I will not be able to do it properly with so small plants.

kp13 wrote: bought a bit in summer and it was full of pests, so I had to throw it away.

When I buy live sphagnum, I submerge it completely for several days to try and was out any pests hiding in there. It also loosens up the fibers and makes it easier to clean out an debris that might be tangled up in it.

Good to know, thanks! I was shocked when I got that sphagnum and decided not to risk But, I will follow your method in the future.