FlytrapCare Carnivorous Plant Forums

Why seedlings from seeds use the nutrients and not die ?

Because they start photosynthesizing to produce their own food

I meant when they are inside the jar and grow they first leaves and at the same time they take the nutrients from the jar, that is not open yet. I don't understand how a CP that doesen't need nutrients, but only light and bugs, can survive in a TC with nutrients and grow at a certain height.

I think I've been wondering the same thing if I understand your question correctly. Why can a flytrap thrive in fertilizer in TC but the same will kill it in soil?

I initially thought the answer was because it is the VFTs roots that cannot handle nutrients but in TC the plants absorb them directly without roots. But now that I have a culture with some big fat roots, I know that can't be the answer.

Then I thought maybe it was because the amounts in 1/3 MS media were so small compared to commercial fertilizer, but if I've calculated it correctly, they're not.

**bump**

My guess is the TDS numbers we see are all wrong. We say max of 50ppm, but you have to understand the soil provides salts and it gets much much more concentrated as it dries. In TC the ppm is around 2500ppm for 1/2MS.

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Thanks for your reply edman, I've been enjoying hearing from you. So are you saying you think the TDS in harmful soil is much higher than the 2500 ppm of 1/2 MS and that's why it's harmful?

Since I'm not sure how to test that, let's look at it this way. Judging by successful growth in MS, I think a VFT should also be able to handle a watering with orchid fertilizer. I'm looking at a bag rated 20-14-13 that calls for 1 tsp per gallon. If I've done it right, that comes out to about 485 ppm (I excluded the minors for simplicity). I've never tried it but everything I know about flytraps says that should kill them. Miracle Grow potting soil is also supposed to kill them (haven't tried that either) and it has a much lower NPK of .12-.04-.08 (though I'm not sure if that is accounting for the weight of the soil it's in or just the actual fertilizer). Yet, you're right, a 2500 ppm MS solution doesn't kill them!

Soil in the natural environment and the medium in the TC environment are not overly comparable. Joining the Yahoo group "Home Tissue Culture" might enlighten you on some of the differences. Plants in TC cannot feed on insects for nutrition (how much PPM N would that equate to?) nor do they photosynthesize much (no sugar is normally added to soil, but needed in TC medium). Plants in soil will have roots running all through the immediate area, but tissue cultures have very short roots that do not penetrate far into the medium. Very likely there is a gradient of availability of nutrients with the ones nearest being used first and the ones farther away less directly accessible. Think sucking a thick milkshake through a small straw. All the goodies are still there, but not to be had in one sip.

TCGator wrote:Soil in the natural environment and the medium in the TC environment are not overly comparable. Joining the Yahoo group "Home Tissue Culture" might enlighten you on some of the differences. Plants in TC cannot feed on insects for nutrition (how much PPM N would that equate to?) nor do they photosynthesize much (no sugar is normally added to soil, but needed in TC medium). Plants in soil will have roots running all through the immediate area, but tissue cultures have very short roots that do not penetrate far into the medium. Very likely there is a gradient of availability of nutrients with the ones nearest being used first and the ones farther away less directly accessible. Think sucking a thick milkshake through a small straw. All the goodies are still there, but not to be had in one sip.

I think a big question that comes out of this, which I don't really know, is *WHY* do carnivorous plants not tolerate high ppm water? At first guess I would suspect it's the osmotic pressure caused by the salts in the water that could prevent the roots from functioning (roots can absorb many more nutrients if they internally have a very low osmotic pressure, but this would make them sensitive to high salt contents which I suspect is what's causing the sensitivity). However in tissue culture maybe the roots burn anyways and it doesn't matter? With enough nutrients at the roots the burnt/stunted roots might still provide adequate water uptake (that would explain why you're seeing such short roots in TC). It's also possible that specific salts that burn the roots don't exist in TC, or that something added in TC affects the development to improve tolerance of the plants (the nutrients is pretty close to what you'd expect in sap, and there is no bacteria eating it, maybe the roots develop thinking it's simply sap which has a higher ppm).

Maybe there are studies out there that outline the real reasons, I'm really just guessing. But I really don't think the ppm is just somehow lower near the plant.

TCGator wrote:Very likely there is a gradient of availability of nutrients with the ones nearest being used first and the ones farther away less directly accessible.

Of course, you try to avoid this by getting the right pH and solidity of your medium, but I could see it being the case after the culture has become established. But I don't think that would be forming a protective field for the roots because if you replate them, into a new medium where there is an even distribution of nutrients, they aren't harmed.

edman007 wrote:I think a big question that comes out of this, which I don't really know, is *WHY* do carnivorous plants not tolerate high ppm water?

Yes!

edman007 wrote:With enough nutrients at the roots the burnt/stunted roots might still provide adequate water uptake

I'm not sure preventing water uptake is the only damage high TDS does though because 1) VFTs can grow quite happily without any roots in TC so they seem to be able to absorb water directly into the rhizome...meaning if you didn't let your fertilized soil dry out, and kept them humid, they should still be ok. 2) When exposed to salts, a VFT shows signs of "mineral burn" on the leaves, not signs of dehydration. It's as if they poison the plant internally. 3) This is subjective, but the roots, though short, look pretty darned healthy in TC.

edman007 wrote:It's also possible that specific salts that burn the roots don't exist in TC, or that something added in TC affects the development to improve tolerance of the plants

That's what I lean towards. Some of the obvious differences are the presence of sucrose and lack of photosynthesis, a different delivery method to the roots, and then the differences in nutrients themselves. I notice MS has a pretty low level of phosphate. What if that's the only component flytraps have a problem with...or something similarly as simple . It would be interesting to try watering flytraps with the various individual major MS components. E.G. water one plant with just ammonium nitrate added, another with only phosphorous, another with only potassium.

TCGator wrote:Plants in soil will have roots running all through the immediate area, but tissue cultures have very short roots that do not penetrate far into the medium. Very likely there is a gradient of availability of nutrients with the ones nearest being used first and the ones farther away less directly accessible. Think sucking a thick milkshake through a small straw. All the goodies are still there, but not to be had in one sip.

I don't understand.

I have read where people are doing cuttings/pullings and germination in just plain distilled water.

I am wondering if you mixed up a media of just agar and distilled water would you have the same success rate in propagation.

Obviously all soil has minerals and salts in it naturally; even nutrient poor soil contains trace minerals and salts and is organic by nature.

I think even a VFT needs some of these in small quantities to enable photosynthesis to occur.

I got a pack of supposed VFT seeds online to experiment with. I am going to try different media for sterile germinaton, and I may do an agar and distilled water media as one of those.

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digilexic wrote:I have read where people are doing cuttings/pullings and germination in just plain distilled water.

I am wondering if you mixed up a media of just agar and distilled water would you have the same success rate in propagation.

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Why not ? Agar is just for keeping them still.

roarke wrote:

digilexic wrote:I have read where people are doing cuttings/pullings and germination in just plain distilled water.

I am wondering if you mixed up a media of just agar and distilled water would you have the same success rate in propagation.

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Why not ? Agar is just for keeping them still.

I have been reading more on the water propagation method, and it seems much more forgiving in the amount of sterilization. The only nutrients are the seeds/pullings themselves in the distilled water.

I wonder how this will translate to a just agar and water media. I am sure the agar will allow more chance for microbial growth. I am just now completing my supplies for a few experiments and will try to post regular updates in a new thread when I begin.

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You want to test water propagation, agar propagation or tissue culture propagation?
You don’t test tissue culture propagation this time do you?
Water propagation: is a traditional way to propagation plants such as vegetables in water. Cut a brand and dip it into to water then a few weeks later plant got root and transfer to soil. However, many plants don’t like water propagation such as rose, apple… They prefer soil and required root hormone to improve root propagation.
Agar propagation: You want to replace water by agar. Agar will give more root and faster than water? Agar is much cheaper than water? What are the pros and cons in replacing water by agar? You can try for fun but I don’t see a “big advantage” in using agar vs water.

Notes: “(no sugar is normally added to soil, but needed in TC medium)”
Sugar is the nutrient for plants, fungi and bacteria in vitro and ex-vitro. If you mix sugar in a cup of water or in soil you see fungi, bacteria all over place few days later. They will kill your plant the same way when you get contamination in vitro. It is the reason why people don’t add sugar to soil.