FlytrapCare Carnivorous Plant Forums

Sponsored by FlytrapStore.com

Ask questions about how to grow and care for Venus Flytraps

Moderator: Matt

Flytrap Dormancy needed?

Yes
4
57%
No
3
43%
By hungry carnivores
Posts:  354
Joined:  Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:31 am
#362424
The experiment is going to be lasting for four months. I will judge based off of basal bud health and amount of divisions produced. Size will be used for commentary and scientific discussion, but NOT for any statistical testing.

How?

Research has shown that plant species take cues from the environment, and can go through dormancy whenever, no matter what their clocks say. It has been demonstrated that one can alternate a plant in and out of dormancy in a short period of time.

I will put the VFT's in a dormancy chamber, with bright lights. I will cool it off for one month, and lower the photoperiod. The next month, I will increase the photoperiod very high, like summer. The third month, I will simulate dormancy, and the fourth month, I will repeat the 'summer conditions.'

This will provoke the same cytological response as a plant that has gone through dormancy, and if dormancy stimulates divisions, we should see that rather well. My indoor plants will be kept indoors, in no special arrangements.

I will carefully inspect the flytraps once a month (at the end of each cycle). This should create a decent amount of observations, because we have 12.

They are all from the same mother plant; genetics is not an issue.

Pots will both be kept in a tray of water 1 inch high. No fertilizer will be given. Perlite may cause different effects, and this experiment concerns whether dormancy is necessary, without any other materials. Thus, the mix will be 4 peat: 1 perlite, I recognize that soil drainage is needed.

Open for questions ATM, but if this thread becomes toxic I will ask mods to intervene. A little poll, just wondering what the consensus is, I want to see how people think prior to starting my research.
User avatar
By Cross
Posts:  1442
Joined:  Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:25 pm
#362425
I think dormancy is necessary. I don't think 4 months is enough. If it takes 2 years and ultimately the plant does die from lack of dormancy, then 4 months would not prove anything. Studies have suggested that 2 years is usually when the death begins to occur.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

User avatar
By MikeB
Location: 
Posts:  219
Joined:  Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:13 pm
#362433
hungry carnivores wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:15 pmResearch has shown that plant species take cues from the environment, and can go through dormancy whenever, no matter what their clocks say. It has been demonstrated that one can alternate a plant in and out of dormancy in a short period of time.

I will put the VFT's in a dormancy chamber, with bright lights. I will cool it off for one month, and lower the photoperiod. The next month, I will increase the photoperiod very high, like summer. The third month, I will simulate dormancy, and the fourth month, I will repeat the 'summer conditions.'
The "this month winter, next month summer" cycle is very abnormal for Venus flytraps. That alone could cause odd behavior from the plants. A more realistic test would be one set of plants experiences dormancy from November - February (in the northern hemisphere).
hungry carnivores wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:15 pmPots will both be kept in a tray of water 1 inch high.
How tall are the pots? With 1 inch of water, I would use pots that are 5-6 inches tall.

Will the water level be reduced during simulated dormancy? The plants are normally just damp at this time, not wet. Too much water during dormancy promotes rot.

For the record, I think that it is possible to convince some, if not all, Venus flytraps to grow year-round. Jagasian's SD Kronos plants are proof of that. However, I don't think that it's a normal way for them to live: dormancy is a natural occurrence for flytraps. However, that doesn't count for much. People have been bending plants to their will for a long, long time.
By Propag8
Location: 
Posts:  397
Joined:  Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:43 pm
#362441
I agree with Mikeb and cross that this is to unnatural to reproduce 12 months in 4 months. I predict the stress will cause general stalling and lack of growth making any results almost impossible to decipher. Im still interested in your experiment and it's results after all it's only for discussion purposes. :D
By Propag8
Location: 
Posts:  397
Joined:  Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:43 pm
#362443
Sorry if I've missed something but the experiment is to see if the plants do "not" need a dormancy but you are giving them an artificial dormancy here which is a very old technique which isnt that much different from inducing flowering in certain species. Sorry im not trying to shoot you down just understand your plans. :D
Last edited by Propag8 on Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By _-SphagnumFromHell-_
Location: 
Posts:  594
Joined:  Mon May 28, 2018 5:02 pm
#362444
I'm very conflicted. I think it's possible with well enough conditions like Jagasian's, but the natural dormancy cycle should be considered first. Getting the lights, the space, and the experience to make a functioning year round grow space is a lot to work out, and could very easily lead to failure. Although it can work, I don't like the idea of beginners and young kids getting it into their heads to grow them without dormancy, and putting all this time and energy into a potential failure. I think that's why so many advice about flytraps follows the "dormancy: no questions asked" rule, just because it's way easier and more convenient. So I think it can work, but it shouldn't be someone's first consideration.

That being said, personally I find dormancy to be a good time to relax. I like my plants, but I like the fact that they can just stop growing and I won't have to worry about them. It allows me to focus on other things in my life. And at that time I'm usually going back to school.
Propag8, Matt, MikeB liked this
By hungry carnivores
Posts:  354
Joined:  Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:31 am
#362468
In terms of death, I'm not worried. I'm looking to see cell differentiation and formation of new divisions, which is simple mitosis.

Research points to the fact that plants will not behave weirdly, but I'm unsure. Pots are 6 inches tall. Water will be reduced during dormancy.

I myself don't have the time for a long experiment, so this will just offer us all a discussion point. Our scientific question is:

Does the presence of dormancy induce the formation of divisions in D. m. Typical?
By hungry carnivores
Posts:  354
Joined:  Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:31 am
#362469
_-SphagnumFromHell-_ wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:08 pm I'm very conflicted. I think it's possible with well enough conditions like Jagasian's, but the natural dormancy cycle should be considered first. Getting the lights, the space, and the experience to make a functioning year round grow space is a lot to work out, and could very easily lead to failure. Although it can work, I don't like the idea of beginners and young kids getting it into their heads to grow them without dormancy, and putting all this time and energy into a potential failure. I think that's why so many advice about flytraps follows the "dormancy: no questions asked" rule, just because it's way easier and more convenient. So I think it can work, but it shouldn't be someone's first consideration.

That being said, personally I find dormancy to be a good time to relax. I like my plants, but I like the fact that they can just stop growing and I won't have to worry about them. It allows me to focus on other things in my life. And at that time I'm usually going back to school.
This is me too. I love science stuff so I will do this for the heck of it. I just want to put more stuff on the table for conversation.


IF ANY BEGINNER READS THIS
Follow dormancy. It's so much easier having biology work with you than against you.
MikeB liked this
By hungry carnivores
Posts:  354
Joined:  Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:31 am
#362470
Propag8 wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:03 pm Sorry if I've missed something but the experiment is to see if the plants do "not" need a dormancy but you are giving them an artificial dormancy here which is a very old technique which isnt that much different from inducing flowering in certain species. Sorry im not trying to shoot you down just understand your plans. :D
Firstly, this is a scientific study, so we're open to all commentary, so long it isn't rude. Dormancy is complicated, this is a PhD thesis question. I'm answering a sub question I wanted to learn about, which should help us end the pissing contest. Facts > anecdotes. That said, I have had good and bad experienced with plants inside. Most of the time you have to mimick the condition to outside, so I love growing vft outdoors. The only reason I keep a few indoors is since I get more seeds.
Propag8 liked this
By Propag8
Location: 
Posts:  397
Joined:  Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:43 pm
#362475
Thanks for clearing that up so you are purely looking if dormancy promotes divisions that will be interesting. I also grow indoors with zero natural light and use a similiar technique to mimic natural photoperiods although i go slightly below daylight equivalent in december only 7-8 hours just to increase the chances of a deeper dormancy as temps are rather hard to control indoors to winter levels without some sort of expensive air conditioning system. Obviously i decrease and increase photoperiod very gradually per month so will be interested how the plants will react to sudden fluctuations in light.
User avatar
By Matt
Location: 
Posts:  21339
Joined:  Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:28 pm
#362489
_-SphagnumFromHell-_ wrote:I'm very conflicted. I think it's possible with well enough conditions like Jagasian's, but the natural dormancy cycle should be considered first. Getting the lights, the space, and the experience to make a functioning year round grow space is a lot to work out, and could very easily lead to failure. Although it can work, I don't like the idea of beginners and young kids getting it into their heads to grow them without dormancy, and putting all this time and energy into a potential failure. I think that's why so many advice about flytraps follows the "dormancy: no questions asked" rule, just because it's way easier and more convenient. So I think it can work, but it shouldn't be someone's first consideration.

That being said, personally I find dormancy to be a good time to relax. I like my plants, but I like the fact that they can just stop growing and I won't have to worry about them. It allows me to focus on other things in my life. And at that time I'm usually going back to school.
100% agree with everything here. There are ways to manipulate nature into doing unnatural things that we humans may enjoy observing. But the questions I ask myself when doing so are, even though it might be possible:
1) Is it worth the extra energy on my part to force my plants to do something unnatural? With the number of plants we grow, it isn't feasible to even consider feeding them all through the winter.
2) Is it worth the risk of killing plants when forcing them to do something they wouldn't naturally do?
MikeB, Propag8 liked this

hmmm... i've sent it, don't know why it's not arri[…]

Help Save My Adelae (Urgent)

Possibly temperature extremes. Couldn't be sure th[…]

First Drosera Flower Stalk!

I see two seed pods developing so far, still wait[…]

Utricularia reniformis for sale

Sorry, none available right now! Aw, too bad.[…]

Chef, I and I'm so sorry, somehow I put the wrong […]

New Tenant

As long as he doesn't get stuck! Sent from my SM-[…]

Stow away?

That's the fun part of ordering off of California […]

An Idea

I got one. How about "best seedgrown carnivro[…]

Support the community - Shop at FlytrapStore.com!