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Discussions about anything related to Venus Flytraps, cultivars and named clones

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By Jade
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Posts:  424
Joined:  Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:57 pm
#453391
Ghostlykahn wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 2:06 am I mean, any plant that is cultivated is technically a cultivar so I’d call it whatever you want. Name it lowes 1, 2, 3 and so on. Make up a cool name. Whatever you want. I’ve never understood people saying that if something doesn’t have a label it’s a typical flytrap. Have you seen a typical flytrap? I get not being able to say it’s one of the registered cultivars because it isn’t but calling a very interesting flytrap with cool traits a “typical” is just kinda dumb. It might not be a registered special cultivar but that doesn’t mean you can’t give it a name yourself
I feel like it’s probably about people who have a lot of plants that might be cultivars thinking that the typicals are too and accidentally selling them under the wrong name or something. Right now I only have typicals, so it’s not as much of an issue. I do agree though that the name is bland. They could have used a different word to convey that meaning while also letting people like me know that there’s a vast sea of typicals that look different than I would have ever thought. Didn’t know that til I made this thread.
By Fishkeeper
Posts:  881
Joined:  Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:59 pm
#453392
Abandoning the quotes for readability.

Some plants have male and female individuals, or will put out male flowers and female flowers from the same plant, but Venus flytraps are one of the many plants that have both male parts and female parts in each flower. You don't even need two plants- you can pollinate one with its own flowers, if what you want is more of whatever trait you're looking at. You could certainly propagate yours vegetatively (cuttings or division) to get two genetically identical plants, but that's much more trouble than just self-pollinating.

You can also cross two different-looking plants and see what happens, of course.

Leaf pullings aren't especially hard. You gently pull a leaf down and away from the plant, trying to take off a bit of the white rhizome with it as it snaps off. You can do them at any point. Technically it's usually recommended to do plant-disturbing things during dormancy, but flytraps handle disturbance fairly well, and I have a vague suspicion (though I do not at all have a source to back this up) that a dormant plant may not be as inclined to give successful strikes (babies) as an actively growing one.

Plantlets and seedlings can generally skip their first dormancy, and can therefore be planted at somewhat wonky times of year, yes.

How sure are you that those babies aren't connected to the larger plant? They're oddly close together to be hitchhikers, so I wonder if they might be growing from something like a damaged rhizome or near-the-surface root.

https://www.carnivorousplantresource.co ... cks-beard/
By "pom-pom effect", I meant things like this plant. Quite neat, but as you can see even in this photo, not all the traps will look that way.
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By steve booth
Posts:  1310
Joined:  Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:15 am
#453401
The environment and climate plays a big part in how your plant looks, so in theory, if the substrate is poor and the plant is deprived of light and water then it can look different to how it did the previous year. Still, given equal conditions then they will look the same after dormancy.

Cheers
Steve
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By Jade
Location: 
Posts:  424
Joined:  Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:57 pm
#453418
Yeah the self pollination route seems best. That’s actually rather neato that they are able to do that.

For sure I wouldn’t mind trying to cross one of the ones that have bigger traps with the sawtooth arches one. Or maybe another one if I grow or buy a cultivar.

Actually your suspicion makes sense to me. And thanks I didn’t realize it was so easy. I wanted to try leaf pulling from my ping but with my tremors I’m pretty sure I would destroy it. I really need to try to get a medication to help with that. It’s gotten to the point of ridiculousness when I’m trying to be gentle or precise. :?

Ok thanks I was wondering recently about the seedlings dormancy because I was thinking ahead and wondering how to grow say a VFT from seed without harming it with the skipped dormancy. Very good to know.

Oh I think I just assumed it was a baby? It is connected to the main plant, but I couldn’t get it to divide when I repotted. I was lifting it a bit because a lot of rain over time had pushed it down a bit, and I can’t be certain until I take them out for dormancy, but it looked like it had grown a rhizome next to the main plant rhizome and I was actually wondering how I would separate them at all. They both seemed from what I could see of them fairly large. I just figured since it was that small it was a seedling.

That pompom effect is definitely neat looking thanks for sharing :D


And thanks to you too @steve booth, that is great to know!
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By andynorth
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Posts:  1962
Joined:  Fri May 12, 2023 9:08 pm
#453424
Jade wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 5:05 pm Yeah the self pollination route seems best.
I have done the self pollination a few times but only with typicals thus far. I have to wonder though, are the seeds still considered "typicals" if the self pollination method is used with no chance of any cross pollination?
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By Fishkeeper
Posts:  881
Joined:  Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:59 pm
#453428
andynorth wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:31 pm
Jade wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 5:05 pm Yeah the self pollination route seems best.
I have done the self pollination a few times but only with typicals thus far. I have to wonder though, are the seeds still considered "typicals" if the self pollination method is used with no chance of any cross pollination?
Seeds won't produce plants genetically identical to the parent, even self-pollinated ones. For it to keep the cultivar name, it has to be an exact clone. You can do that by divisions, leaf pullings, stalk cuttings, or any other method in which you take a piece of the plant off to make another plant. People do sometimes label seed-grown plants as, say, "Alien x self", or "B52 x Crimson Sawtooth".
Jade wrote:I wanted to try leaf pulling from my ping but with my tremors I’m pretty sure I would destroy it. I really need to try to get a medication to help with that. It’s gotten to the point of ridiculousness when I’m trying to be gentle or precise. :?
That sounds unpleasant. Definitely worth looking into meds for it, since it's causing you trouble, and ideally figuring out the underlying cause. In the meantime, maybe you could ask a friend with steadier hands?
Jade wrote:Oh I think I just assumed it was a baby? It is connected to the main plant, but I couldn’t get it to divide when I repotted. I was lifting it a bit because a lot of rain over time had pushed it down a bit, and I can’t be certain until I take them out for dormancy, but it looked like it had grown a rhizome next to the main plant rhizome and I was actually wondering how I would separate them at all. They both seemed from what I could see of them fairly large. I just figured since it was that small it was a seedling.
If it's connected to and growing from the main plant, it's part of the main plant, not a seedling. Plants can be a bit odd about propagating themselves that way- I currently have a Red Piranha lookalike that's both growing nice large traps and sprouting an absolute forest of baby traps around its base.
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By Ghostlykahn
Posts:  9
Joined:  Wed May 22, 2024 1:13 pm
#453431
Jade wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 3:47 am
Ghostlykahn wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 2:06 am I mean, any plant that is cultivated is technically a cultivar so I’d call it whatever you want. Name it lowes 1, 2, 3 and so on. Make up a cool name. Whatever you want. I’ve never understood people saying that if something doesn’t have a label it’s a typical flytrap. Have you seen a typical flytrap? I get not being able to say it’s one of the registered cultivars because it isn’t but calling a very interesting flytrap with cool traits a “typical” is just kinda dumb. It might not be a registered special cultivar but that doesn’t mean you can’t give it a name yourself
I feel like it’s probably about people who have a lot of plants that might be cultivars thinking that the typicals are too and accidentally selling them under the wrong name or something. Right now I only have typicals, so it’s not as much of an issue. I do agree though that the name is bland. They could have used a different word to convey that meaning while also letting people like me know that there’s a vast sea of typicals that look different than I would have ever thought. Didn’t know that til I made this thread.
Oh absolutely. Getting them mixed up with cultivars is a danger if you have cultivars. But remember that not all cultivars out there that are sold are registered anyways. So my rule of thumb is, if it looks like a wild flytrap it’s a typical… if it’s interesting or unique in any way I’m giving it a name
By Jade
Location: 
Posts:  424
Joined:  Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:57 pm
#453441
That sounds unpleasant. Definitely worth looking into meds for it, since it's causing you trouble, and ideally figuring out the underlying cause. In the meantime, maybe you could ask a friend with steadier hands?
I was on something once but I got some bad side effects and with everything else going on at the time I just forgot about it. It’s just getting worse lately so I can’t ignore it. I have a neurologist, but I think I just assumed it was passed down from my dad drinking too much or something. Anyhow I pretty much like having just a few dear friends and family around, but they’ve all recently had health problems and aren’t too steady themselves so I’ll see what my neuro says whenever I see her. October I think.
If it's connected to and growing from the main plant, it's part of the main plant, not a seedling. Plants can be a bit odd about propagating themselves that way- I currently have a Red Piranha lookalike that's both growing nice large traps and sprouting an absolute forest of baby traps around its base.
Yeah the little one is like a little forest of traps on that side. So how do you separate them or do they just grow together?

Is it like a clone or more like a sibling or something? I’m such a noob haha at most stuff but especially this knowledge.
By Fishkeeper
Posts:  881
Joined:  Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:59 pm
#453461
If at any point you've uprooted the plant anyway, like if you're going to attempt division or leaf pullings, you can try to split the babies off. Or you can uproot it specifically to try to divide them off. Either way, best done during dormancy. There should be a place where you can see how to split them while leaving both with some rhizome and roots. If you don't see a place like that, it may be best to let them grow further before dividing.

Babies like that, growing off the main plant, are clones. They're made by some of the mother plant growing into a different plant, and as such have the same genes as the mother plant. You can't get (significant) genetic change by vegetative propagation of any sort, whether it's divisions, cuttings, or sprouts like this. Only by seeds.
By Jade
Location: 
Posts:  424
Joined:  Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:57 pm
#453466
Fishkeeper wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:17 pm If at any point you've uprooted the plant anyway, like if you're going to attempt division or leaf pullings, you can try to split the babies off. Or you can uproot it specifically to try to divide them off. Either way, best done during dormancy. There should be a place where you can see how to split them while leaving both with some rhizome and roots. If you don't see a place like that, it may be best to let them grow further before dividing.

Babies like that, growing off the main plant, are clones. They're made by some of the mother plant growing into a different plant, and as such have the same genes as the mother plant. You can't get (significant) genetic change by vegetative propagation of any sort, whether it's divisions, cuttings, or sprouts like this. Only by seeds.
That’s so cool. I know I’m like nerdily excited about all this stuff that’s just the norm, but I can’t help it lol.

Yeah I was thinking when I get them ready to go into dormancy, I’d try, but I can also try in the middle of that time if it would be better. I can’t be certain because I didn’t get to see it all, but it kinda looked like two fairly large rhizomes were fused together. If that’s the case I wonder if the division might be more difficult because of how large they both seemed. I’ve had easy division so far. The one that has the largest traps now was just a leaf that almost fell off of one of the two larger plants. I wasn’t sure it would even grow because I didn’t see any rhizome at all. That’s probably the easiest division I had, but I’m guessing this one would be more like cracking a pill in half or something. I guess no need to borrow trouble before I’m even at that point though.

So it’ll look the exact same? That would be cool. If I wanted to have best chances at keeping how it looks now, would it be better to try to cross pollinate between them or whatever it’s called or just do self pollination on both giving hopefully twice the chance if they’re big and healthy enough to be allowed to flower? Thanks for all this info by the way, it’s all really helpful and just neato :D
By Fishkeeper
Posts:  881
Joined:  Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:59 pm
#453475
Hey, this is the place for nerding out!

What are you intending to do to get them ready for dormancy? All you should really need to do is water them less and keep them in either a cooler area or in whatever outdoor place you have them in. You don't have to dig them up or anything.

Yes, a clone of a plant looks the same. That's why we want clones, because a clone of, say, a B52, will always look and grow like a B52. Things like size and shape of traps, tooth shape, and potential for color are genetic. Two genetically identical plants, grown in the same conditions, will look the same. Changing things like light intensity and (for some plants) fertilizers can tweak color and growth habit, but taking two leaf pullings from a B52 and putting them in a pot next to each other should result in identical plants.
(At least in theory. In practice you can wind up with a tad bit of variation due to something still being different in the growing conditions, even in the same pot. One gets damaged at some point, one manages to pick up a mostly-harmless virus the other doesn't get, that sort of thing.)

If you want plants that look exactly like this one, you'd need to clone it, which means leaf pullings, flower stalk cuttings, or waiting for it to multiply and then dividing it. If you're hoping to intensify the traits you like, you would want to self-pollinate it and hope that you can sort of 'stack' the genes for, say, the arched traps. There should be no difference between pollinating one of the flowers with its own pollen and pollinating one with pollen from a clone of the same plant- genetically identical plants means genetically identical pollen.
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By Jade
Location: 
Posts:  424
Joined:  Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:57 pm
#453491
Well I think I read something about repotting about once every 9 months, so I figured I’d just do that slightly early. Also read something about bagging and putting in the fridge but I wasn’t sure if that was the entire pot.

I tried putting them in straight LFSM, and for me anyhow it makes it harder to get the plants settled where they should be. Maybe I’ll get better at straight LFSM, but I’d like to move them to peat/perl mix. Also I didn’t think they’d grow back as fast as they did so a few of them need bigger pots for the roots. I figured it’d be good to do that at the beginning of dormancy, but if I’m wrong please let me know.

It’s interesting because I probably need a magnifying glass to be 100% sure, but the little baby doesn’t seem to have arches and it’s hard to be sure, but the cilia seem normal too.

I think probably leaf pullings are the best beginner strategy for cloning? Would I stick that under a grow light or maybe better to get one at the end of dormancy maybe? I would really like to try with the arched weird cilia one.

I decided to call it Cenobite 2. Seems like it works out and won’t be confusing if I end up with so many plants that I can’t keep track lol.
By Jade
Location: 
Posts:  424
Joined:  Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:57 pm
#453546
I know I take too long to get to the point, but I’m still wondering about the last post first and second paragraph and the fourth one.

So I live in NE Ohio, and we get freezing weather a lot usually in winter so no outdoors. But even in my basement there’s heat hence the refrigerator part of those paragraphs. I think that’s all I had to add really. Our heater would be about 72F.
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