FlytrapCare Carnivorous Plant Forums

I know you need a permit to ship these across state lines, and it looks like Meadowview Station's permit to do so expire last year. Are there still places that sell the endangered plants with active permits?

I assume you would still be able to get seeds of these plants without a permit correct?

You can get seeds without a permit. From time to time, people send seeds from these species to the seed bank. Outside of that, you need to either get it from a supplier in the same state or have it sent to you as a gift. Ah, technicalities.

It gets a little tricky. You don't need a permit to ship endangered plants across state lines unless compensation changes hands. Example: I ship an oreophila division to you across state lines. I don't charge you, it's not a trade for anything, and I pay postage. Completely legal. If you happen to live in Tennessee, I can charge you plus shipping because it doesn't cross state lines. Also legal. I have oreophila and alabamensis, both sent from out of state from plants in cultivation, I paid nothing for either, both obtained 100% legally.
If you were to pay me money, or send me a VFT "Hellcat" for the oreophila, even if you pay postage, then it would be illegal.
Seeds are the gray area as the law states it's illegal to sell "plants or their parts" across state lines, it just depends on interpretation. Seeds can be considered parts of the plant, but they are actually parts of two plants as the gametes come together to create the seed and will produce a genetically different plant from the parent. We have alabamensis seeds in the seed bank. We're not selling them, but the recipient pays for a stamp or two to get them. So, unless someone with the authority to prosecute decides to interpret seeds as "plants or their parts", they remain allowed.

AFAIK Meadowview is the only place with a CITES permit that can legally sell them across state lines, so I was considering picking up a Jonesii from them next year if I end up not getting a chance to make it out to CA to get a few clones from Mike Wang next summer. But like you said, their permit posted on their website shows it expired in 2020. But I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they got it renewed and just never got around to updating their site to reflect that, so I would think it's probably worth shooting them an email first to be sure.

NightRaider wrote:AFAIK Meadowview is the only place with a CITES permit that can legally sell them across state lines, so I was considering picking up a Jonesii from them next year if I end up not getting a chance to make it out to CA to get a few clones from Mike Wang next summer. But like you said, their permit posted on their website shows it expired in 2020. But I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they got it renewed and just never got around to updating their site to reflect that, so I would think it's probably worth shooting them an email first to be sure.

Yea one thing I saw was that they could still sell during the "renewal period" but I've got no idea what dates that encompasses. I guess I'll try to find out from them.

ChefDean wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:46 pm We have alabamensis seeds in the seed bank..

Are the Alabamensis x selfs considered the endangered form of the species? I thought alabamensis subsp. alabamensis was the endangered form or is it technically the same thing?

I thought it'd be nice to feel like I'm contributing to keeping them in the loop in case the areas ever do get decimated. I saw what they did with the Hurricane Creek ones and that was pretty sad.

I've always found it quite ironic that I have jonesii coming out my ears and I have to either spend money to get rid of them or throw them away because of these laws that supposedly protect the plants. It's difficult to even give them away locally because everybody already has one.

I've bought from Meadowview. I told them their permit showed expired, but they assured me they were in the process of renewing... Just wanted to share they were made aware of it on the phone beginning of March 2021.

A Fellow Scientist wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:20 amAre the Alabamensis x selfs considered the endangered form of the species? I thought alabamensis subsp. alabamensis was the endangered form or is it technically the same thing?

Well, I believe they're the same thing, but don't quote me.
However, the plant I have is a division of a plant that was grown from seed, or itself was grown from seed, legally collected by John Brittnacher. He won't disclose the location in order to protect the site, but I wouldn't think he would attach such secrecy to it unless it was an endangered species.

I believe the confusion is just a result of how messed up the rubra complex classification is at the moment. As far as I'm aware, alabamensis are all the same and all protected, whether they're labeled S. rubra ssp. alabamensis, S. alabamensis, S. alabamensis ssp. alabamensis, whatever.

Yes there's a lot of disagreement about how the various "rubra complex" species should be classified, whether they should all be separate species, various configurations of subspecies, and how they're actually all related. Some recently phylogeny work has actually suggested that alabamensis is more closely related to leucophylla than rubra.

ChefDean wrote: Well, I believe they're the same thing, but don't quote me.
However, the plant I have is a division of a plant that was grown from seed, or itself was grown from seed, legally collected by John Brittnacher. He won't disclose the location in order to protect the site, but I wouldn't think he would attach such secrecy to it unless it was an endangered species.

Is that where it was sourced from? I believe I got my division same place around the same time as you but don't quote me on that. The label on mine also had ICPS SG on it

Personally, I would consider x Self as an endangered species for a couple reasons. Primarily it is the same genetic material being passed down from the endangered plant which surely happens in nature but also because you couldn't really differentiate the two when it comes to observation. It isn't a cultivar so variations will occur. I don't believe the same rules apply on the x self front but I'm also no expert.

Curious though, does your Alabamensis have weaker pitchers? I've noticed it compared to my other Sarrs; it seems like the material isn't as tough. I did miss a couple waterings though over the year so no doubt that could've created weakness. I just had a few instances where the pitchers fell over, likely due to high winds at inopportune times that damaged them. Also interesting is it seems to have stopped producing the bronzish color that the earlier pitchers had. They have subtle black veins in the throat now in the more mature ones.

I got mine from Matt, who got the seeds from ICPS, who got them from Brittnacher (if I remember the sequence correctly).
So we both have plants touched by royalty.

ChefDean wrote:I got mine from Matt, who got the seeds from ICPS, who got them from Brittnacher (if I remember the sequence correctly).
So we both have plants touched by royalty.

Oooh, I need to show that plant more reverence haha. I didn't know