FlytrapCare Carnivorous Plant Forums

Hey guys,

I seriously got into flytrap cultivars this year and as I look over my collection, a lot of them end up looking very similar. I understand that with flytraps, its the subtle differences that we appreciate in these plants. I was buying everything with a name, but have slowed my roll and have gotten really interested in the mutants. I have attached pictures of my Red/Purple, Wally, Low Giant and Big Mouth. They all look so similar.

I've only had them a couple of months and vigor seems to be about the same. Wally has produced a ton of offshoots, but the plant is actually smaller than when I originally got it. Low giant has slightly longer cilia and is the only one with color banding on the outside of the trap. Big mouth hasn't stood out much to me and Red/Purple seems to be the most vigorous of the bunch. It hasn't divided, but the mother plant has made a lot of progress.

Same thing with SD Draco and Gigantea. One plant is 3x ths cost of the other and they almost look identical! Not complaining though because they are absolutely beautiful, but what makes SD Draco different from Gigantea? Is there a place with more info on specific cultivars? Might do something where I look for the most vigorous/most colorful flytrap out of the similar looking ones and just sell off the rest. Has anyone else thought about this with flytraps or is quarantine getting the best of me?

http://imgur.com/gallery/5OusfQB

http://imgur.com/gallery/AGIhKBk

Interestingly I have all the low growing cultivars mentioned outside minus Red/Purple, which I have in the basement.

The small Wally I have is nearly pure purple/red right now, Big mouth has some dark purple in the traps, and low giant is still pretty green looking.

VFTNoob wrote:I was buying everything with a name, but have slowed my roll and have gotten really interested in the mutants. I have attached pictures of my Red/Purple, Wally, Low Giant and Big Mouth. They all look so similar.

I totally understand where you're coming from! However, I can easily tell those cultivars apart -- minus Red/Purple which I don't grow but I believe came from Australia and might possibly be the same clone as Big Mouth.

Low Giant is distinctly different than Wally and Big Mouth. Big Mouth is the parent to Wally, so they look VERY similar. That's one reason we didn't carry Wally in FlytrapStore for a very long time. I've tried to keep the number of cultivars we offer down to just those that actually look substantially different and are easy to identify. However, after growing Wally for 8 or so years, I can pick it out of the bunch, especially this time of year. It divides more readily and also colors up much more quickly than Big Mouth does. It's a great plant and a definite improvement on Big Mouth.

Low Giant has larger traps and longer leaves. It is distinctly different from Wally and Big Mouth. I could easily pick it out of a lineup of those 3 plants. It doesn't get as good of coloration as those other 2, but it does get good color. It is also quite vigorous, robust (doesn't get sick), and is an excellent seed producer. It is one of my all-time favorite flytraps.

VFTNoob wrote:Not complaining though because they are absolutely beautiful, but what makes SD Draco different from Gigantea? Is there a place with more info on specific cultivars?

Gigantea is a fairly new clone to me, but I didn't notice that SD Draco and it look very similar until I read your post. I see now how you could come to that conclusion. They both have longer foliage in the spring and summer and then hunker down to very colorful winter foliage. However, they do grow quite differently in terms of size, vigor, and when their seasonal changes start. Is that enough to warrant owning both of them? Maybe not, but some people enjoy having a diverse collection of Venus flytraps even if they do look similar to each other some or most of the year.

I don't know of any place with more specific information of cultivars. FlytrapStore descriptions do a pretty decent job but it is hard to fully describe a cultivar in every aspect.

Another good source is Stewart McPherson's Dionaea book. I helped co-author the chapter on cultivars with Mathias Maier (Matze of Green Jaws) and, though a little out of date now, it has some of the best photos and cultivar descriptions I've seen anywhere:
https://www.flytrapcare.com/store/venus-fly-trap-book

VFTNoob wrote:Has anyone else thought about this with flytraps or is quarantine getting the best of me?

I think it's just having more than a few seasons with your flytraps. Some plants that I've shied away from offering in FlytrapStore because I thought they were too similar to other plants, I can see now after many years with them the minute differences. Some people appreciate those and want to grow two very similar plants. I think that's what it really comes down to.

Invasion_UwU_OwO_69_ wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:58 pm Interestingly I have all the low growing cultivars mentioned outside minus Red/Purple, which I have in the basement.

The small Wally I have is nearly pure purple/red right now, Big mouth has some dark purple in the traps, and low giant is still pretty green looking.

Yah I bet they are coloring up really nice inside under lights. I saw a DCX that was almost black. It was beautiful.

Matt wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:33 am

VFTNoob wrote:I was buying everything with a name, but have slowed my roll and have gotten really interested in the mutants. I have attached pictures of my Red/Purple, Wally, Low Giant and Big Mouth. They all look so similar.

I totally understand where you're coming from! However, I can easily tell those cultivars apart -- minus Red/Purple which I don't grow but I believe came from Australia and might possibly be the same clone as Big Mouth.

Low Giant is distinctly different than Wally and Big Mouth. Big Mouth is the parent to Wally, so they look VERY similar. That's one reason we didn't carry Wally in FlytrapStore for a very long time. I've tried to keep the number of cultivars we offer down to just those that actually look substantially different and are easy to identify. However, after growing Wally for 8 or so years, I can pick it out of the bunch, especially this time of year. It divides more readily and also colors up much more quickly than Big Mouth does. It's a great plant and a definite improvement on Big Mouth.

Low Giant has larger traps and longer leaves. It is distinctly different from Wally and Big Mouth. I could easily pick it out of a lineup of those 3 plants. It doesn't get as good of coloration as those other 2, but it does get good color. It is also quite vigorous, robust (doesn't get sick), and is an excellent seed producer. It is one of my all-time favorite flytraps.

VFTNoob wrote:Not complaining though because they are absolutely beautiful, but what makes SD Draco different from Gigantea? Is there a place with more info on specific cultivars?

Gigantea is a fairly new clone to me, but I didn't notice that SD Draco and it look very similar until I read your post. I see now how you could come to that conclusion. They both have longer foliage in the spring and summer and then hunker down to very colorful winter foliage. However, they do grow quite differently in terms of size, vigor, and when their seasonal changes start. Is that enough to warrant owning both of them? Maybe not, but some people enjoy having a diverse collection of Venus flytraps even if they do look similar to each other some or most of the year.

I don't know of any place with more specific information of cultivars. FlytrapStore descriptions do a pretty decent job but it is hard to fully describe a cultivar in every aspect.

Another good source is Stewart McPherson's Dionaea book. I helped co-author the chapter on cultivars with Mathias Maier (Matze of Green Jaws) and, though a little out of date now, it has some of the best photos and cultivar descriptions I've seen anywhere:
https://www.flytrapcare.com/store/venus-fly-trap-book

VFTNoob wrote:Has anyone else thought about this with flytraps or is quarantine getting the best of me?

I think it's just having more than a few seasons with your flytraps. Some plants that I've shied away from offering in FlytrapStore because I thought they were too similar to other plants, I can see now after many years with them the minute differences. Some people appreciate those and want to grow two very similar plants. I think that's what it really comes down to.

I think at this point, Low Giant would be the only one I'd be able to identify in a line up because of its longer cilia. Without tags on the other 3, I'd be lost. I wont get rid of any immediately as this is my first (half) growing season with all of them. I'm sure I'll notice things I really like about them over time.

I appreciate the assessment and the effort of not offering similar looking flytraps. I always find my way back to the "whats in stock" page because ya never know what'll be there. Usually if it's new, its worth adding to the collection. Ive gotten a lot of flytraps from CPR and some are unique, but a lot look so similar right now. Feels like some of the plants are typicals that someone slapped a name on.

Whats your take on Polish dracula vs Trev's? Just got both and they're pretty similar. Does Trev's just get really big? Thanks for the response!

VFTNoob wrote: Is there a place with more info on specific cultivars?

The closest thing I can think of would be the ICPS database. You can look up some information on cultivars that are registered, who registered them and when, and identifying characteristics. However, sometimes it is vague and isn't really going to tell you the difference between Wally and Big Mouth unless it is relevant or part of the summary when it was submitted. They have a list with a drop down menu where you can see some kind of info. I'll be honest though, it's kinda dull to read. The formatting could be done better. You can actually see some of Matt's cultivars on there too. https://cpnames.carnivorousplants.org/C ... me=Dionaea

There is another link as well with a list of cultivar articles from when they were submitted with pictures here: https://cpn.carnivorousplants.org/Culti ... ptions.php though I'm unsure if you need to be a member of ICPS to look at them or not.

Some cultivars are just overboard. Feels like a cash grab, like a "labradoodle." Cephalotus cultivars come to mind. Similar looking plants that are separated by color and vigor. That is just nature. I saw someone on ebay peddling a "Charles Brewer Clone"

Just boils down to what batch of traits you find to be the most aesthetically pleasing as a whole. People are constantly crossing cultivars or seed grown and will encounter a plant that they feel is an improvement over the original. I don't think SD Kronos will be the last big hit for large trap VFTs.

Wow I know where all my free time is going now Thanks for the link! And yah I agree on the cash grab. Some of the plants I own definitely dont need a name, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Thing with the giants is it could take years to tell whether a seedling will take the crown from any current giant.

VFTNoob wrote:I appreciate the assessment and the effort of not offering similar looking flytraps. I always find my way back to the "whats in stock" page because ya never know what'll be there. Usually if it's new, its worth adding to the collection. Ive gotten a lot of flytraps from CPR and some are unique, but a lot look so similar right now. Feels like some of the plants are typicals that someone slapped a name on.

That is absolutely true. I've tried to cull those out of my collection over the years and stop offering them on FlytrapStore. But the problem is that as soon as I do, someone else starts offering them, and then we are missing a business opportunity by not selling them. It seems like no matter how similar two plants are, someone always wants both of them. A good example that comes to mind for me is Alien and Jaws Smiley. I do appreciate that there are differences between these two cultivars, but they are so very similar that I wouldn't choose to grow both. Alien is much more vigorous and thus we've chosen to primarily focus on propagating that plant over Jaws Smiley. However, there seems to be a fair amount of demand for Jaws Smiley and I can't really understand why. I think it is just people seeing someone's photo of it, and then they want it. But the truth is that Alien and Jaws Smiley are virtually indistinguishable in most ways in terms of appearance (as mentioned, Alien is much more vigorous). Trying to explain that to someone who wants Jaws Smiley doesn't seem to persuade them to just get an Alien and be done with it. So, I'll clone Jaws Smiley in 2021 and try to get it propagated to offer as well (sigh).

VFTNoob wrote:Whats your take on Polish dracula vs Trev's? Just got both and they're pretty similar. Does Trev's just get really big? Thanks for the response!

Those two plants are actually quite different in terms of growth habit. Polish Dracula is far more upright growing. Trev's stays low and doesn't get quite as big as Polish Dracula. However, their trap shape and coloration are quite similar. Trev's Dracula colors up a bit easier than Polish Dracula and the red coloration on the traps can get much more saturated and spill over to the lips. Polish Dracula gets good coloration too, but not quite as intense.

Apollyon wrote:

VFTNoob wrote: Is there a place with more info on specific cultivars?

The closest thing I can think of would be the ICPS database. ...https://cpnames.carnivorousplants.org/C ... me=Dionaea

I don't know why I didn't think of that last night when I posted! Of course, there are detailed descriptions of all registered cultivars there! But many cultivars out there aren't officially registered.

Apollyon wrote:Some cultivars are just overboard. Feels like a cash grab

It certainly is! I've always erred on the side of caution when naming plants. It is super easy to just slap a name on any plant and, by doing so, create a market for it. But if someone does that over and over again, I think it would result in a loss of credibility in the long term. There are many people out there who are playing the "short game" and just trying to make a quick dollar. That's never been our goal at FlytrapStore. I'm pretty proud of most of the clones we've selected and named over the years. Are all of them stellar plants? No, there are a few I wish I could take back their names, but most of the FTS cultivars are quite awesome plants and most growers agree, as you can see quite a few of our FTS clones showing up in other vendors stores now.

Matt wrote: I'm pretty proud of most of the clones we've selected and named over the years. Are all of them stellar plants? No, there are a few I wish I could take back their names, but most of the FTS cultivars are quite awesome plants and most growers agree, as you can see quite a few of our FTS clones showing up in other vendors stores now.

I agree, I like a lot of the plants that you've grown and named. VFT cultivars have always been a better representation of what "cultivar" should be, to me anyway. It is one species that gains mutations or expresses a series of different traits over the course of generations. A DC XL or Dracula, Crimson Sawtooth; they're all the same plant with various different expressions for color, size. to shape of the cilia.

Don't get me wrong though, I believe 'Hummer's Giant" and 'Eden Black' should be considered cultivars for sure. It's when they start breaking into 'Black Purple or the various clones where "the lid stands a little more erect" than normal or 'it's a more vigorous plant' I know there's a clumping cephalotus out there. Could be a host of reasons for why that could be the case but I don't know if it should be considered a cultivar. As far as the dark ones, when Eden Black exists, I don't see the need for other named dark clones that are roughly the same exact thing. They start nitpicking differences to validate their claim and it's excessive to me. Though, because of that, Eden Black clones have gotten much cheaper. I guess that is one way to break the market. As you said though, I believe it discredits the idea of cultivars. Naming Drosera hyrbrids is also an "ehhh" kind of thing to me as well. Makes finding a plant easier but calling them a named cultivar is a stretch. They can cross a couple of plants together and then sell a named offspring for a payday. Fact is unless someone knows exactly what to look for and can differentiate them, they could be buying a typical cross as a name. Have the market saturated with illegitimate clones they can't dstinguish. Kinda like Hercules x Self. It's unfortunate.

That said though, I'm actually a huge fan of the FTS plants (which I'm sure you know) precisely because they are all mutations of the same plant with a host of different expressions. I feel like newly registered cultivars should show some distinct difference to those that came before it. I believe the unreigstered clones should be registered and if they can't be then there's a reason why. Then again, if someone wants to pay 75 dollars for a 'charles brewer clone' then that's their prerogative I guess lol.

You're starting to see your plants on sites regularly? Nice, you should be proud of that. I saw a purple ambush one time. At the time, I was wondering if that was even legal lol. I thought there might be a patent on it or something like they do with roses.

Apollyon wrote:VFT cultivars have always been a better representation of what "cultivar" should be, to me anyway. It is one species that gains mutations or expresses a series of different traits over the course of generations. A DC XL or Dracula, Crimson Sawtooth; they're all the same plant with various different expressions for color, size. to shape of the cilia.

Exactly. VFTs really do have a wide variance of appearance, particularly considering they are all the same species. I agree with your analysis of the Cephalotus cultivars. I have a pretty keen eye for noticing differences in plants and, in the case of Cephalotus cultivars, I really can't see all that much variation; certainly not enough to warrant multiple cultivar registrations (in my opinion).

Apollyon wrote:Have the market saturated with illegitimate clones they can't dstinguish. Kinda like Hercules x Self. It's unfortunate.

Uh oh! I just put some Hercules seed in vitro and was planning on offering them on FTS but I just went to read the cultivar registration and see that it should be propagated vegetatively. Ugh. I took a look around at other vendors' websites who are selling it, and there are many, and couldn't help but wonder if they actually vegetatively propagated enough plants to be able to offer them for sale. Seems unlikely...I'll bet most are from seed of Hercules x Self. I'll be sure to note that on the FTS product page when I offer it. I'd love to get the actual D. Hercules though!

Apollyon wrote:I feel like newly registered cultivars should show some distinct difference to those that came before it. I believe the unreigstered clones should be registered and if they can't be then there's a reason why. Then again, if someone wants to pay 75 dollars for a 'charles brewer clone' then that's their prerogative I guess lol.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, a lot of vendors are in the business to make money and really don't care about cultivars or unregistered clones beyond the point of making money by selling them. I don't hold it against them too much because we all need to make money, but it does present challenges when trying to explain to customers the difference between two nearly-identical cultivars, like Dionaea 'Korrigans' and "Crocodile", and why they both exist and are offered on our website. But, in the end, people are free to spend their money any way they see fit. It's none of our business that they're getting swindled and pimped, to quote Macklemore LOL

Apollyon wrote:You're starting to see your plants on sites regularly? Nice, you should be proud of that.

Yeah, I am! It is nice to know that other growers see that FTS Maroon Monster, FTS Crimson Sawtooth, FTS Lunatic Fringe, and a few others are really nice plants.

Apollyon wrote:I saw a purple ambush one time. At the time, I was wondering if that was even legal lol. I thought there might be a patent on it or something like they do with roses.

I've never patented a plant, though I've considered it. Most people are quite respectful in the carnivorous plant world and won't offer plants you've named and cloned, at least until after market saturation is largely reached, so I've never really made it a priority. But there are so many vendors popping up everywhere now, and in vastly higher numbers than ever before, so I might consider patenting any new cultivars that I think are superior before I release them to the public. At the very least, I'd like to learn what is involved in the process of patenting a plant.

@Matt, I honestly would try to patent the plants. You're right though, carnivorous plant people overall tend to be an honest and respectable sort. Much more than I expected when I sought particular plants like Eden Black. People tend to be transparent and up front. I've followed that trend with my own sales that I've made. It was a niche hobby but I think covid is bringing out a lot of different types you wouldn't have seen otherwise. That kinda thing is much more prevalent in the more common plant groups. Houseplants, succulents, etc. The kinds of plants your average person would seek. I honestly do believe in covering your bases but I can respect your approach to people and how to go about things. I wish I had more of that kind of mentality. I'm skeptical from the get go :/

Yeah, sorry for the rant lol. I was reading the thread and went on to look at some of my plants and I thought the same things you did. I'm no botanist, I'm sitting there going "Well, unless I can compare this plant to a selfed at a cellular level or compare the dna, I couldn't definitively say "this is a Hercules, this is an Eden Black." I do trust the person I bought the Cephalotus from though, he went out of his way to explain the story of the plant and where it came from and how he acquired it. I believe it's very likely the real clone. The Hercules came from Cal Carn. so provided they are legitimate about their process, it is the real thing. It is an easy thing to hide though. I personally don't think a nursery's name is enough to blindly assume they go about things the ethical way. As you said, selfing the plant will yield 100+ whereas a root cutting will yield 2-4. Though when you're that mainstream, people will likely scrutinize you. So I'm sure they're more ethical than most. They have it up for debate that Hercules may be an extremely broad leaf capensis that fell out of circulation and found its way back to the mainstream though. They say that due to its ability to cross and the fact the selfed plants express the same characteristics as the parent rather than more aliciae, etc. So we may find down the road that the cultivar isn't a cultivar at all lol. However, I'm planning to propagate them again tomorrow and I'll save you one if you would like. You've done right by me many times and have helped me out a lot, I'd be happy to get you one.

I think you'll have no trouble selling them as x self anyway, if this forum is any indicator. People request the x self all the time. Strangely, mine hasn't flowered yet. I have two of them in the same pot, I think I should separate them and see if that'll change their growth. They're kind of stagnant. I don't think they're quite mature yet.

I can't fault them for trying to make money either. As stupid as I find it that people will name every plant they own, it's the responsibility of the buyer to not get ripped off lol. My favorite has been 'Pink Princess Philodendron.' In the beginning, established cuttings were being sold for 50 bucks. After covid hit these crazy people are buying chopped nodes for 300 dollars. It's a phase though and the plant will be sold for 20 bucks soon enough.

I'm unsure of how to actually get a patent but I read it's fairly simple for what it is. For VFT cultivars that should be easy enough, the plant will look a certain way. Now they could sell it under something else and I wouldn't know how you would go about that as far as "proving," but at the very least if your particular plant is known, they can't sell it under that name and cut into your sales too much. I've only seen one site personally that sold a couple of your cultivars.

I believe plant patents cost $10,000 each which is likely cost prohibitive

Matt wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:51 pm

VFTNoob wrote:I appreciate the assessment and the effort of not offering similar looking flytraps. I always find my way back to the "whats in stock" page because ya never know what'll be there. Usually if it's new, its worth adding to the collection. Ive gotten a lot of flytraps from CPR and some are unique, but a lot look so similar right now. Feels like some of the plants are typicals that someone slapped a name on.

That is absolutely true. I've tried to cull those out of my collection over the years and stop offering them on FlytrapStore. But the problem is that as soon as I do, someone else starts offering them, and then we are missing a business opportunity by not selling them. It seems like no matter how similar two plants are, someone always wants both of them. A good example that comes to mind for me is Alien and Jaws Smiley. I do appreciate that there are differences between these two cultivars, but they are so very similar that I wouldn't choose to grow both. Alien is much more vigorous and thus we've chosen to primarily focus on propagating that plant over Jaws Smiley. However, there seems to be a fair amount of demand for Jaws Smiley and I can't really understand why. I think it is just people seeing someone's photo of it, and then they want it. But the truth is that Alien and Jaws Smiley are virtually indistinguishable in most ways in terms of appearance (as mentioned, Alien is much more vigorous). Trying to explain that to someone who wants Jaws Smiley doesn't seem to persuade them to just get an Alien and be done with it. So, I'll clone Jaws Smiley in 2021 and try to get it propagated to offer as well (sigh).

VFTNoob wrote:Whats your take on Polish dracula vs Trev's? Just got both and they're pretty similar. Does Trev's just get really big? Thanks for the response!

Those two plants are actually quite different in terms of growth habit. Polish Dracula is far more upright growing. Trev's stays low and doesn't get quite as big as Polish Dracula. However, their trap shape and coloration are quite similar. Trev's Dracula colors up a bit easier than Polish Dracula and the red coloration on the traps can get much more saturated and spill over to the lips. Polish Dracula gets good coloration too, but not quite as intense.

Apollyon wrote:

VFTNoob wrote: Is there a place with more info on specific cultivars?

The closest thing I can think of would be the ICPS database. ...https://cpnames.carnivorousplants.org/C ... me=Dionaea

I don't know why I didn't think of that last night when I posted! Of course, there are detailed descriptions of all registered cultivars there! But many cultivars out there aren't officially registered.

Apollyon wrote:Some cultivars are just overboard. Feels like a cash grab

It certainly is! I've always erred on the side of caution when naming plants. It is super easy to just slap a name on any plant and, by doing so, create a market for it. But if someone does that over and over again, I think it would result in a loss of credibility in the long term. There are many people out there who are playing the "short game" and just trying to make a quick dollar. That's never been our goal at FlytrapStore. I'm pretty proud of most of the clones we've selected and named over the years. Are all of them stellar plants? No, there are a few I wish I could take back their names, but most of the FTS cultivars are quite awesome plants and most growers agree, as you can see quite a few of our FTS clones showing up in other vendors stores now.

Does Alien bend inwards like Jaws Smiley? I haven't seen a picture of Alien that looks like the Jaws Smiley on the CPR website. I have both and they look pretty identical right now since they are so small. I believe its like fused tooth where the desired trait of the cultivar doesn't come out until a more mature leaf grows. Alien has been very vigorous for me. Just got Jaws Smiley and its dormant so we'll see what happens in the spring. I do appreciate you offering a diverse, but limited selection of cultivars. Its tempting to buy anything with a name and I agree that buyer confidence would diminish. Purple Ambush has to be 1 of my favorite cultivars. Lets not forget FTS Maroon Monster which I believe is the most vigorous red? If you and Leah really wanted to bankrupt me, yal would get all of GJ's stuff into cultivation

VFTNoob wrote:Does Alien bend inwards like Jaws Smiley?

No, and as far as I can tell, that is the only distinction in appearance between the two plants. Alien teeth kind of face inward toward each other whereas Jaws Smiley teeth curl inside the trap, at least on larger specimens. Otherwise, they seem to grow similarly except that Jaws Smiley is an exceptionally weak grower.

VFTNoob wrote:Purple Ambush has to be 1 of my favorite cultivars. Lets not forget FTS Maroon Monster which I believe is the most vigorous red?

Yeah, FTS Purple Ambush is one of the best green-leaf varieties to get exceptional red internal trap coloration. And yes, FTS Maroon Monster is considered to be the biggest and most vigorous red-leafed variety. I don't grow any other red-leafed flytraps that get bigger nor are more vigorous than FTS Maroon Monster.

VFTNoob wrote:If you and Leah really wanted to bankrupt me, yal would get all of GJ's stuff into cultivation

It will happen eventually! I need to figure out a way to source them here in the US. Green Jaws doesn't ship to non-EU countries.

Gotta collude with some EU growers who would ship to the states. I imagine that would be a headache. Thats the other beauty of flytraps. Some traits show better when they are young (Spotty/Cheerleader/Mirror) and some look typical until they dont. I imagine finding new cultivars is quite the process since taking plants to maturity can take years