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Discussions about anything related to Venus Flytraps, cultivars and named clones

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By ApgarTraps
Posts:  36
Joined:  Mon May 28, 2018 2:22 pm
#355309
Excuse me for being a little Darwinesque, but I can't help myself.

Interesting observation about what WE -- as humans -- think as "desirable traits" versus what nature itself uses to decide: adaptive value.

If a mutation makes a species MORE LIKELY TO SURVIVE, then that mutation will be further expressed because of its survival value.

Case in point: a few years ago, I bought a novel VFT clone called "Dente" -- with shark-like teeth. Very cool to look at:
Dente VFT.jpg
Dente VFT.jpg (1.11 MiB) Viewed 1167 times
3 years later, I only have THREE plants with this feature -- out of about 300 plants, all of which are derived from NINE original plants: one "dente", and 8 Home Depot rescues.

Since the cool-looking sharks teeth don't work as well as the typical intermeshing eyelash design, this clone did not do as well in my collection; probably didn't eat as many bugs as the typicals. This clone -- while selected by humans as "cool" -- does not have adaptive value. My typicals went crazy dividing, while "Dente" apparently missed a few meals!

My new strategy is to feed my "dente" clones to help them along, because they're really cool. However, Mother Nature has a different definition of "cool": that which helps a species survive.
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By Shadowtski
Posts:  4070
Joined:  Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:19 am
#355311
That situation is analogous to the different dog breeds.
I love Shadow, my Shih Tzu, but that breed is not known for it's ferocious survival instincts and traits.
Civilization gives us the ability to grow and appreciate things just because they're neat and loveable.

That being said, there are some VFT cultivars that are so ugly and dysfunctional, I have a hard time seeing the appeal of them.
But I am hardly an unbiased observer.
I am solidly a Drosera guy.

Good growing,
Mike
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By sanguinearocks101
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Posts:  1011
Joined:  Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:56 am
#355312
Without mutations none of us would be here today. If the first tiny unicellular organism on Earth didn't mutate, then there would only be that type of organism on Earth and there would be no plants, animals or other creatures. The mutations that came from that one tiny speck created all the beautiful(and not so beautiful) creatures on Earth. Sadly the mutations also created cave crickets, I hate how they have such long legs, it looks more like a spider than a cricket.
By hungry carnivores
Posts:  255
Joined:  Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:31 am
#355320
We humans drive adaptation on our own, we have been able to exclude nature from our desires, and are *probably* the only species ever to do this. That said, I don't know if ants have been succesfully cultivating the right kind of ant fungus.

But, apart from that, we have understood what breeding is/does. We can, as Shadowtski said, make and grow things just due to their appearances. Cows pose no value to us either. Put cows in the wild and they will die, and their udders are so big they sometimes can't walk. It's just like a dentate trap. But, we people appreciate cows and use them for our purposes.

This analogy also applies in the horticultural world too. :mrgreen:
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By kato_stud25
Posts:  46
Joined:  Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:08 pm
#355347
ApgarTraps wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:11 pm Excuse me for being a little Darwinesque, but I can't help myself.

Interesting observation about what WE -- as humans -- think as "desirable traits" versus what nature itself uses to decide: adaptive value.

If a mutation makes a species MORE LIKELY TO SURVIVE, then that mutation will be further expressed because of its survival value.

Case in point: a few years ago, I bought a novel VFT clone called "Dente" -- with shark-like teeth. Very cool to look at:

Dente VFT.jpg

3 years later, I only have THREE plants with this feature -- out of about 300 plants, all of which are derived from NINE original plants: one "dente", and 8 Home Depot rescues.

Since the cool-looking sharks teeth don't work as well as the typical intermeshing eyelash design, this clone did not do as well in my collection; probably didn't eat as many bugs as the typicals. This clone -- while selected by humans as "cool" -- does not have adaptive value. My typicals went crazy dividing, while "Dente" apparently missed a few meals!

My new strategy is to feed my "dente" clones to help them along, because they're really cool. However, Mother Nature has a different definition of "cool": that which helps a species survive.
That's odd my dentes eat tons there traps are always closed and filled with bugs and they devide like crazy. I'm excited to see them this growing season.
By Benny
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Posts:  449
Joined:  Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:46 pm
#355385
hungry carnivores wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:32 pm their udders are so big they sometimes can't walk.
Where did you hear this? The case you are talking about sounds like a disease they get. It bloats their udder and turns the milk chunky. It is a fatal sickness, but cows are not bred with so much milk until they cannot walk. This is a disfuntion because farmers don't want to have to walk feed to their cattle. Trust me, I'm one of them.
Last edited by Benny on Fri May 29, 2020 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
By hungry carnivores
Posts:  255
Joined:  Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:31 am
#355390
Hm. I read this in a book, that cow's udders, when full, make it impractical for them to walk. (biology textbook). In practice, I dunno, if you're a farmer you probably know better than I do.
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By Benny
Location: 
Posts:  449
Joined:  Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:46 pm
#355395
Oh. Maybe you are talking of if they do not get milked. Cows are milked daily, as they would if they were raised with young. If they are left to fill, it naturally squirts out on its own, creating discomfort. Usually, they are simply more prone to kick you and do not enjoy listening to you. Maybe in more severe cases it leads to the disability.
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By Artchic528
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Posts:  599
Joined:  Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:13 pm
#355412
The disease you're thinking of is called mastitis. Basically, an infection of the mammary tissues within a cow. It not only creates large distention of the udders, but causes the cow extreme pain when being milked and the milk is contaminated with blood and pus. It's the pus that causes the "chunky" appearance. Mastitis can affect any lactating female mammal, even us humans. It's usually treated with antibiotics and regular extraction (milking) to remove the contaminated or "bad" milk.

Typically, you milk cows twice daily. Once in the morning first thing, and again in the afternoon. This ensures that their udders don't become engorged, which can leave the cow extremely uncomfortable, and making them more susceptible to getting mastitis. Cows are usually more than eager to step up to the milking stall (or stalls if it's a bigger dairy farm), to relieve the growing pressure in their udders.

How do I know this? My grandpa is a retired dairy farmer and my dad, his son, has told me about these things in passing. I also have too much time on my hands and look these things up.

Next you'll want to know about LDAs. :lol:
By Benny
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Posts:  449
Joined:  Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:46 pm
#355422
Mastits! That is the word! A friend of mine has has cows with it. He described the milk as chunky. The cow had to be slaughtered (I don't know if there is a cure).

Yes, we milk ours twice a day. I meant to say that but said daily because me and my sibling have a schedule, so that no one has to do it 2 times in one day.

I do intentionally miss the morning milking for show days. This allows for the larger, more defined udder, which is desired. I certainly notice a difference in the attitude! In the end, though, it was worth it. I got jr. supreme champion female (it is a small fair, not many people to compete against).

Very cool that you come from a line of dairy farmers. Kudos to all of them! Do you happen to know what species they raised? I love jerseys, despite their naturally stubborn nature!
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By Artchic528
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Posts:  599
Joined:  Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:13 pm
#355428
My grandpa raised Holsteins, your typical black and white dairy cow. LOL
By Benny
Location: 
Posts:  449
Joined:  Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:46 pm
#355431
Ah. The give a lot more milk than Jersys!
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By ApgarTraps
Posts:  36
Joined:  Mon May 28, 2018 2:22 pm
#355437
Shadowtski wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:23 pm I am solidly a Drosera guy.
I'd like to start growing drosera. Where do you recommend I buy them?
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By Shadowtski
Posts:  4070
Joined:  Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:19 am
#355442
I'd like to start growing drosera. Where do you recommend I buy them?
For beginner Drosera, like Drosera capensis, many growers would send you one for free if you agreed to pay for shipping, which is about $8.00 for a flat-rate USPS box.
PayPal is the standard service for this.
There is no fee for sending money if you use the Friends and Family Option.
(But with F&F, there is no option to recover your money if something goes wrong.)

That is, assuming you live in the US.
Otherwise, check out growers in your country.
Also, there is a Forum topic on the various online growers. https://flytrapcare.com/phpBB3/carnivor ... liers.html
There are also Buy, Sell, Swap, & Trade Facebook Groups.

Good growing,
Mike
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