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By twitcher
Posts:  598
Joined:  Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:56 am
#343488
I am curious regarding the effect of pod/parent order in the creation of hybrids, so have been looking for opportunities to compare hybrids with the same parents but reversed pod/parent creations. Keep in mind this is hard to do without knowledge of the specific varieties used to create the hybrids.

I had the opportunity to compare X 'Aphrodite' (P. agnata x P. moctezumae) with the in house creation of P. moctezumae x P agnata by Curious Plant reversing the pod parent order used to create Aphrodite. Below is a picture of both of these plants side by side. Note that the flower of moctezumae x agnata is different (more red in it) than Aphrodite. Also Aphrodite leaves have colored up more than moctezumae x agnata. Both plants have been blooming for me all summer, each having about two flowers active at the same time. Leaves of Aphrodite are clearly more upright while leaves of moctezumae x agnata are hoizontal. Plants are in the same media (as close as possible, afs with a tiny amount of peat) and same conditions. To better track the differences, I have moved the plants so that they are growing side by side. Note that the moctezumae x agnata looks like it could be in winter form, so pictures are not necessary completely accurate. I think I need to grow them side by side for another year to confirm these differences.

Sorry about the picture quality. It's from my phone and unedited.
Attachments:
P. x 'Aphrodite left, P moctezumae x agnata right
P. x 'Aphrodite left, P moctezumae x agnata right
20190914_135243.jpg (2.28 MiB) Viewed 738 times
By DragonsEye
Posts:  205
Joined:  Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:22 pm
#343561
As far as names go, both crosses are Aphrodite.

As you have pointed out, without knowing which strains of moctezumae and agnata which were used in the original cross, it will be sketchy at best with regards to drawing any meaningful conclusions.

Also, one would have to have multiple specimens of seed grown offspring of both crosses to compare to make any determination if the pod parent has any greater impact on the offspring's phenotype.




By twitcher
Posts:  598
Joined:  Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:56 am
#343578
Sorry, Dragon, I have to disagree with this position. Aprhodite is a registered cultivar that can only be reproduced vegitatively. Even if using the same pod/pollen parents, there is still variability in the seed production that would not duplicate exactly the same genetic makeup as the named cultivar. The seed offspring would have a range of expressed features that likely would be similar, but not identical and it is not proper to label them as Aphrodite.

There are two plants in my picture. Only one is X Aphrodite. The other is one of many possible moctezumae x agnata hybrids.

If Aphrodite could be selfed, then your case might be a little stronger.

To use an analogy, albeit a poor one, if a man and a woman have 3 kids, they would not all be the same identical genetic makeup. You could not assume that they all would have blue eyes for example.
By DragonsEye
Posts:  205
Joined:  Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:22 pm
#343597
On the contrary, I would argue that is irrelevant. For example:

All orchids resulting from a cross -- irrespective of which was the pollen parent or pod parent are all given the smae hybrid name. For example, Cattleya Pacavia is the result of Cattleya purpurata x Cattleya tenebrosa. Doesn't matter which was the pollen parent or which the pod parent. Even if the cross is "remade" using two different plants (but still one being a Cattleya purpurata and the other a Cattleya tenebrosa), the hybrid name remains the same for ALL progeny.

Even with dog breeding, all dogs resulting from crossing a Lab with a poodle are known as Labradoodles irrespective of which was the female dog and which was the sire.

Yes, the progeny can exhibit a range of characteristics ... that is only to be expected. Outstanding examples of a particular cross may then be given a second "clonal" name.

An argument can be made that this is no different with humans. All offspring of a particular couple will bear the same patronymic. However, as the individual children do demonstrate different traits, they bear an additional name -- a personal or "first" name.

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By jpappy789
Location: 
Posts:  150
Joined:  Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:03 pm
#343613
I’m not sure we can apply orchid “rules” here. My understanding is that they are used differently.

In this case, Aphrodite is a specific, registered cultivar name. It’s not a simple nothospecies name. As such, you would seem to have a very different interpretation of what a cultivar is than most. A cultivar has to be uniform and stable in carrying on its characteristics.

You’re correct that it’s not 100% certain without knowing the true parentage of the agnata and moctezumae used here. But I think we can assume it’s not the same plants Jan Flisek used when he first made the cross over 20 years ago...
Last edited by jpappy789 on Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By jeff
Posts:  418
Joined:  Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:41 pm
#344310
Bonjour

what type of P.agnata did you use to create this hybrid ?
do you know the type of agnata to your x 'Aphrodite' ?

to compare, both parents must be of the same species (subsp-var or form)

see here some reversal http://cpphotofinder.com/Pinguicula.html and x 'Aphrodite' ( jan Flisek seems to have used a typical agnata for this x 'Aphrodite' )

in the animal genus:
the tiger and the lioness (tigron) do not give the same animal as the lion and the tigress (ligron) likewise for the lama and the dromedary (cama and lamel)
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