FlytrapCare Carnivorous Plant Forums

I am not knocking this EBay merchant, in fact, I admire his marketing prowess. His photos of his traps, (which seem a bit enhanced, color-wise, at least), really make the plant look attractive, so much so, that he often gets bids for a common cultivar, (with only one or two crowns), that are 2 or 3 times as much as you would pay for that same plant somewhere else. He often takes a seed-grown with no really special characteristics, gives it a unique name, and somebody ends up paying 30 or 40 bucks for it. In many ways, he seems to exist in a Flytrap World all its own; he insists that stratification of flytrap seeds is necessary; most of the plants he sells are 5 to 8 years of age, yet he claims they are still a "medium size plant"; he claims that the second biggest cultivar in the world is the Big Vigorous, followed by (in no particular order): Big Mouth, Fang, Royal Red, Dingley Giant, and the Low Giant; he claims to be the originator of Wally, which is one of my favorites in my collection; Now he has one called Pinnacle, and in the description, he has a little "copyright" symbol; he claims that this is the biggest, and will produce traps of two inches regularly, and in good conditions can far exceed 2 inches; he apparently doesn't acknowledge any of the common thinking on this site (never a word about B52s, A2s, DC XLs, etc.). In short, he seems to be the Pepsi to Matt's Coca-Cola. Not sure where I'm going with this, and I'm not trying to stir anything up with anyone, I just find it all very interesting. Anyway, my subject was Pinnacle, so, anyone know anything about Pinnacle?

I'm in the same boat as you sbrooks. I do have to hand it to him though, he does a good job at marketing his plants and they always seem to sell very well (as well as good customer reviews to back his reputation).

I have actually purchased a flytrap from him in the past and what was supposed to a medium-large flytrap (according to the description) ended up being just a small normal flytrap I overpaid for...don't get me wrong I still love it (but I also love all my flytraps). But in comparison to his plants to purchases from FTS, I would always recommend that latter.

It seems to me he makes up an exotic name and takes some really high def enhanced pictures supplemented by some colorful font that always seem to have "rare" in the description (hopefully this doesn't sound too harsh...just my opinion ). But when I did order from him, he was very good with communicating to me and I received the plant fairly quickly after making my payment.

As for his cultivar "Pinnacle Δ", I have never heard of it before. I would like to see pictures of it with traps past two inches. Also starting the bid at $80 seems a bit steep to me for something we are supposed to assume is true in the description. I have tried to look up some of his cultivars names up in the past and I could not find anything on the internet.

I guess my point is that (in my opinion) his plants are not worth what they sell for on ebay. And I am sure someone will bid on this plant and he will make a nice profit from it. Anyway I hope I didn't offend anyone!

Yes, I've watched quite a few of sam1greenthumb's eBay auctions for average or "typical" looking flytraps, with an exceptionally good sales pitch, sell for exorbitant prices. Sometimes up near $200 for plants that we'd consider, and regularly sell in the FlytrapStore, as seed-growns. But he is an amazing salesman and a seemingly great grower. His plants always look very healthy. I've never ordered a plant from him personally, but he does have quite a following and seems to do very well on eBay. I have ordered his seed mix and tissue cultured it and got some nice seedlings from it. One of them is the "FTS Lunatic Fringe", which is likely a seedling of Sam's "Guava Sawtooth".

Joel Garner, who also sells on eBay and Amazon and for whom I do some tissue culture work, has had some interaction with Sam in the past and grows quite a few of Sam's named flytraps. Joel is impressed enough with "Guava Sawtooth" that he wants me to TC it. I have several of them now (Joel's plants that I will return to him) that I will put into TC soon. Joel also sent me a "Pinnacle" flower stalk last year. I got it in TC, and it grew, but got contaminated and I had to deflask all of the tissue. I have a few of them growing in the greenhouse. They are still small, so I can't comment on their size.

However, Joel purchased another large "Pinnacle" from Sam and shipped it to me. It arrived yesterday and is a mature plant with a flower stalk. I'm going to TC the flower stalk at the same time as the "Guava Sawtooth" flower stalks. The mature "Pinnacle" does have large traps, but nothing near 2 inches. Biggest trap is about 1.5 inches. See below photos. Definitely a nice plant, but nothing I'd consider huge yet. We have lots and lots of flytraps with 1.5" traps that we've grown from seed. Maybe it will surprise me later. Giants often aren't giant all the time.

Yeah I saw that listing earlier this morning and a few things seemed funky. I know big vigorous is a large cultivar but I've never heard of it as the largest, that's always been held by b52 and followed closely by a2 and DC XL. So I don't fully understand what he is trying to pull or, if in his experience, that his statements are true. I want to see this mother plant or whatever plant that he can show us that is over 2 inches. I have a young adult A2 from fts that I got about 6 weeks ago that just produced a trap over an 1 1/2 wide so I think this one alone is a major contender to his pinnacle. Yet he mentions nothing of the true giant flytraps. I would probably pay the starting bid of $80 to own a flytrap that can exceed the mighty B52, if he could prove the validity of his claim. If it truly can get that large I want to see it and then you can my money! Sorry for my similar rant, anyone have ideas on Pinnacle?

I can't believe some of the prices he get's his plants for.
Some times I wonder If he knows someone that will bump up the price for him so the other people will bid higher.......
The highest I EVER got for a 5-6 year old typical was $40

Wow! I could sell my collection and retire at his prices. That Pinnacle up for auction looks absolutely typical. I can't imagine paying $80 for that, or really any fly trap for that matter. I hope the info in his listings is truthful because there's nothing admirable about ripping people off. 100% positive feedback, though, so that says something.

sbrooks wrote:I am not knocking this EBay merchant, in fact, I admire his marketing prowess. His photos of his traps, (which seem a bit enhanced, color-wise, at least), really make the plant look attractive, so much so, that he often gets bids for a common cultivar, (with only one or two crowns), that are 2 or 3 times as much as you would pay for that same plant somewhere else. He often takes a seed-grown with no really special characteristics, gives it a unique name, and somebody ends up paying 30 or 40 bucks for it. In many ways, he seems to exist in a Flytrap World all its own; he insists that stratification of flytrap seeds is necessary; most of the plants he sells are 5 to 8 years of age, yet he claims they are still a "medium size plant"; he claims that the second biggest cultivar in the world is the Big Vigorous, followed by (in no particular order): Big Mouth, Fang, Royal Red, Dingley Giant, and the Low Giant; he claims to be the originator of Wally, which is one of my favorites in my collection; Now he has one called Pinnacle, and in the description, he has a little "copyright" symbol; he claims that this is the biggest, and will produce traps of two inches regularly, and in good conditions can far exceed 2 inches; he apparently doesn't acknowledge any of the common thinking on this site (never a word about B52s, A2s, DC XLs, etc.). In short, he seems to be the Pepsi to Matt's Coca-Cola. Not sure where I'm going with this, and I'm not trying to stir anything up with anyone, I just find it all very interesting. Anyway, my subject was Pinnacle, so, anyone know anything about Pinnacle?

Sam is a respected grower. All his listings are true and that plant does get pretty big. I take it you are fairly new to this hobby(3 years or less?), so you might see him as just some guy making claims but he;s been here for a while. He has been growing a very long time also. He sells a lot of his own clones for the most part; Wally, Guava Sawtooth, etc. Also DC XL I wouldn't include in that list. It is fairly new and I've only seen one person grow it very big. Whilst on the other hand, B52 gets big under everyone's care. There are actually many big clones who *could be bigger than B52, but most people on this forum usually use this forum the most, so they hear about B52 and DC XL.Then when they hear things that are out of their "normal", they think that its preposterous. Nothing wrong with that because most people knowledge on here was acquired on here so they may lack certain knowledge of the plants. I believe most regular and large sized flytraps can reach 2". it is just a matter of near perfect growing conditions, and how comfortable the plant is. I've even seen 'Dentate Traps' plants with traps up near 2" or maybe larger. I've even seen Fused Tooth with 2" traps. The only 2" traps I've even gotten is from a plant I call 'Everest' that grows pretty lanky in the summer.

Here is 'Everest' last summer outside (I sold it but got it back):

During the freezes, it lost multiple traps that were around 1.5" or larger. I'll add pictures as the summer progresses if it gets that big

Chas wrote: he;s been here for a while. He has been growing a very long time also.

Time in the hobby does not necessarily equate to having the most knowledge nor experience. I've seen quite a few people come into this hobby here on FlytrapCare and quickly understand how to care for plants and be better growers than people who have been at it for years. There is a skill and talent factor involved as well.

Most of Sam's listings on eBay sound like a "snake oil salesman" to me. He makes claims about plants with 2 inch traps (or larger), but I've never seen a photo of one that large in his listings. The current "Pinnacle" listing shows a plant with 1.5" traps (or just under that), which is the same size as the traps on the "Pinnacle" flytrap I took photos of this morning. And I've seen quite a few eBay listings of Pinnacle the last couple of years and all of them have shown traps around 1.5". That's really not very impressive trap size for a "giant" flytrap. Many flytraps can attain 1.5 inch traps.

But I do think Sam is an excellent salesman and grows very nice and healthy flytraps, which is why he has lots of positive feedback.

Chas wrote:He sells a lot of his own clones for the most part; Wally, Guava Sawtooth, etc.

Yeah, and I grow some of them and I've not yet been very impressed with any of them. Wally looks almost exactly like Big Mouth, its parent plant, to me. Guava Sawtooth is nice, but not significantly different from Sawtooth or Bristletooth from what I can see. I have been growing Pinnacle for a year now (out of TC) and it doesn't seem to be remarkably vigorous nor larger than a seed-grown flytrap from giant parentage. But again, time will tell. I would guess that by next year I can make a more accurate assessment of the size of Pinnacle.

Chas wrote:Also DC XL I wouldn't include in that list. It is fairly new and I've only seen one person grow it very big.

Why not? How many mature DC XL plants do you grow? I have somewhere around a dozen now and they can get huge as evidenced by the photos in the store DC XL listing. And I've seen Steve's DC XL flytraps in person and they're just as large. The only reason you haven't seen more people grow it very big is because it was just released to the public a couple of months ago. B52 has been around for 7 years or more, and mass propagated for a long time, so it is more widely distributed, thus more people grow it and have had time to grow it to a large size.

For me, DC XL get larger traps than B52. And its growth habit, with the thick and tall upright leaves, is more attractive in most people's opinion. Does a mature DC XL always produce 2 inch traps? No, but neither does a mature B52.

Honestly, with "giant" flytraps people are just splitting hairs. I've said it before...once you've seen one, you've pretty much seen them all. DC XL, B52, Southwest Giant, Dingley Giant, Slack's Giant, Czech Giant, Henning's Giant, Low Giant, Dutch Delight, Megatraps, G16, Big Vigorous, A2, Big Mouth, Pinnacle...all of them are extremely nice flytraps with fairly large traps...and they are BORING! I'm bored to death with giant flytraps. Sure, I appreciate them, but I wish more people here in the US were excited about the genetic variation of the species, like the majority of the people in Europe are, than trying to get the "biggest" flytrap when the size difference in most "giant" flytraps comes down to extremely small fractions of an inch.

Matt wrote:

Chas wrote: he;s been here for a while. He has been growing a very long time also.

Time in the hobby does not necessarily equate to having the most knowledge nor experience. I've seen quite a few people come into this hobby here on FlytrapCare and quickly understand how to care for plants and be better growers than people who have been at it for years. There is a skill and talent factor involved as well.

Most of Sam's listings on eBay sound like a "snake oil salesman" to me. He makes claims about plants with 2 inch traps (or larger), but I've never seen a photo of one that large in his listings. The current "Pinnacle" listing shows a plant with 1.5" traps (or just under that), which is the same size as the traps on the "Pinnacle" flytrap I took photos of this morning. And I've seen quite a few eBay listings of Pinnacle the last couple of years and all of them have shown traps around 1.5". That's really not very impressive trap size for a "giant" flytrap. Many flytraps can attain 1.5 inch traps.

But I do think Sam is an excellent salesman and grows very nice and healthy flytraps, which is why he has lots of positive feedback.

Chas wrote:He sells a lot of his own clones for the most part; Wally, Guava Sawtooth, etc.

Yeah, and I grow some of them and I've not yet been very impressed with any of them. Wally looks almost exactly like Big Mouth, its parent plant, to me. Guava Sawtooth is nice, but not significantly different from Sawtooth or Bristletooth from what I can see. I have been growing Pinnacle for a year now (out of TC) and it doesn't seem to be remarkably vigorous nor larger than a seed-grown flytrap from giant parentage. But again, time will tell. I would guess that by next year I can make a more accurate assessment of the size of Pinnacle.

Chas wrote:Also DC XL I wouldn't include in that list. It is fairly new and I've only seen one person grow it very big.

Why not? How many mature DC XL plants do you grow? I have somewhere around a dozen now and they can get huge as evidenced by the photos in the store DC XL listing. And I've seen Steve's DC XL flytraps in person and they're just as large. The only reason you haven't seen more people grow it very big is because it was just released to the public a couple of months ago. B52 has been around for 7 years or more, and mass propagated for a long time, so it is more widely distributed, thus more people grow it and have had time to grow it to a large size.

For me, DC XL get larger traps than B52. And its growth habit, with the thick and tall upright leaves, is more attractive in most people's opinion. Does a mature DC XL always produce 2 inch traps? No, but neither does a mature B52.

Honestly, with "giant" flytraps people are just splitting hairs. I've said it before...once you've seen one, you've pretty much seen them all. DC XL, B52, Southwest Giant, Dingley Giant, Slack's Giant, Czech Giant, Henning's Giant, Low Giant, Dutch Delight, Megatraps, G16, Big Vigorous, A2, Big Mouth, Pinnacle...all of them are extremely nice flytraps with fairly large traps...and they are BORING! I'm bored to death with giant flytraps. Sure, I appreciate them, but I wish more people here in the US were excited about the genetic variation of the species, like the majority of the people in Europe are, than trying to get the "biggest" flytrap when the size difference in most "giant" flytraps comes down to extremely small fractions of an inch.

Well the part on new is basically what I said

I just wouldn't include it until I see multiple people with the plant get large sized traps.
I can agree with you on the Giants. They sell for the most but teeth are my favorite. Maybe Leah told you from that big order
I have quite a few clones in the works... I'll tell more about them later...

I honestly did not mean to start any hostility here. Sorry to all parties involved. But I do have a few rebuttals, if you will, to the points brought up by Matt and Chas. First off, Matt, how can we get into all of these cool smaller varieties here in the U.S. when they are not available to us? We are teased with the listings of all the cool traps on your store site---but they're not in stock. No one else seems to have any unique varieties available to U.S. buyers either...............................Chas, you're stating that everything Sam says is true; are you saying that Sam's traps actually somehow lose that unique deep purple color from the time they leave his door to the time they arrive at my door? Or that flytrap seeds actually do require stratification? Why do so many others have so much success not stratifying? Or that plants growing for 6 or 7 years can still be classified as medium sized? Is there another forum somewhere, or another source of information available that would surpass FlyTrapCare in size of knowledge covered or in diversity of growers who offer opinions based on experience?

I agree with matt about giant flytraps being boring, most look the same. The only ones that I think really stand out to me are the low giant and big mouth. I prefer low growing plants as apposed to tall growing plants. But I guess its all about what you like, I like flytraps with a lot of color but not entirely red like a red dragon or other red varieties. I have quite a few different varieties right now and still my favorite is the low giant. Its already producing traps that are around 1.5 inches, and i love the low growth it has. I think second place would be a tie between big mouth and the a2 I purchased from the flytrap store about 3 or 4 weeks ago. And again because of the color they exhibit, as well as having large traps. But right now I have one typical that has been outgrowing all of my plants, now I dont really like tall growing plants but this one stands out because of how robust it looks and its getting a dark red inside the traps which I love.

Just a good 'ol fashion debate I don't think anyone means any harm! And I thought I would throw my 2 cents in (even though I know your questions are not directed towards me).

For the different varieties, the more popular cultivars sell out extremely quick (so you have to act fast). A lot of the times they are in stock, but will sell out the same day (DC XL for example). For other cultivars (the more recent additions like G16, Alien, etc.), I believe Matt is propagating more to supply the huge demand for them. That process takes awhile to get going and to be mass produced. There are some other online sellers that sell some different varieties, but FTS does overlap most of them that are available. I realized with this hobby, it takes a lot of patience on waiting for certain cultivars to become available! I check this website everyday (multiple times) and I am sure there are more people like me, which makes is hard to sometimes obtain a cultivar you may be eying

For Chas' questions, I cannot answer for him (or Matt), but it is true you do not need to stratify Flytrap seeds. Some people do and have success with it, but it is not necessary from my experience and from what I have researched. Some plants that have been growing for 6 or 7 years may be medium in size (or small or even large)...for example the "Long Red Fingers" cultivar is small in comparison to 'B52'. So if you were to compare those cultivars of the same age, you would see a pretty big size difference.

I don't mean to offend anyone! Just throwing my opinion out there. Sorry if I misinterpreted any of the questions you threw out there

What is implied when he says, "this now a medium-sized plant" is that it is medium sized in its individual growth. And Matt says that he wishes more people were into the other varieties, that implies that there are a bunch of them sitting on a shelf somewhere that he can't get rid of. When they are available, the demand for them will far surpass the demand for the bigger varieties. That's all I'm trying to say.

sbrooks wrote:What is implied when he says, "this now a medium-sized plant" is that it is medium sized in its individual growth. And Matt says that he wishes more people were into the other varieties, that implies that there are a bunch of them sitting on a shelf somewhere that he can't get rid of. When they are available, the demand for them will far surpass the demand for the bigger varieties. That's all I'm trying to say.

Gotcha! Ya I would say size is pretty arbitrary. I like the way Matt describes them on FTS as a Young Plant, Young Adult, Premium Plant, etc. To me that makes more sense, because different cultivars will vary greatly as far as size is concerned. And like I stated before I cannot answer for Matt, but maybe he is talking about some of the not as popular cultivars that may have been around for awhile. Anyway that's my 2 cents But I understand what you are asking!

sbrooks wrote:I honestly did not mean to start any hostility here.

Sorry. Did I come across as hostile? I did not mean to do so. I was simply attempting to express my opinion and contribute to the discussion. I apologize if I sounded hostile in my post.

sbrooks wrote:Matt, how can we get into all of these cool smaller varieties here in the U.S. when they are not available to us?

Yes, that is unfortunate. But I think your logic is a bit backward. the reason they aren't available here is because there isn't much of a market for them! Until FlytrapStore came along, a Dionaea enthusiasts could only purchase a handful of varieties and most of them were giant flytraps with, perhaps, 3 to 5 unusual flytraps available a 2 or 3 places. There is only a very small demand for the unusual varieties, which is why none of the major TC labs have mass produced them and why they're harder to come by. I think it really takes a small store run by someone with a large variety of skills to be able to offer these plants because the return on invested time is exceptionally low, so most of the work has to be done by the same person. And hiring someone to do most of the work isn't an option if you want to actually make enough money to feed yourself.

sbrooks wrote:We are teased with the listings of all the cool traps on your store site---but they're not in stock.

Yes, again, this is a limitation of not enough man power and the fact that flytraps grow so slowly. Our inventory is still growing however. This is only the 4th summer we've had here and things are finally ramped up close to capacity. We'll have lots and lots of plants to offer this year. But the rare varieties that I've only had in tissue culture one or two years won't have the inventory that the other ones that have been in TC longer will. It's just the way it works. Realistically, it takes about 3 years worth of TC work and growing to get a substantial enough inventory to keep a particular clone in stock. Many clones I only initialized last year. But the ones I did 2 or 3 years ago, such as Jaws, Pink Venus, Maroon Monster, Crimson Sawtooth, Low Giant, Wacky Traps, Trichterfalle, etc. are all almost perpetually in stock or will be most of the summer. Others, such as Mirror, DC XL, Louchapates and many other varieties that I just got in TC a year or two ago will be in limited quantities until I can get them sufficiently propagated.

MisterE24 wrote:I like flytraps with a lot of color but not entirely red like a red dragon or other red varieties. I have quite a few different varieties right now and still my favorite is the low giant.

Low Giant is an awesome plant. And Big Mouth is an excellent plant for your likes. Do you have a Jaws yet? If you like a lot of color but not entirely red, Jaws is definitely one you need. It doesn't grow low year round, which is one of my favorite traits in flytraps as well, but it is one of my favorite flytraps.

sbrooks wrote:And Matt says that he wishes more people were into the other varieties, that implies that there are a bunch of them sitting on a shelf somewhere that he can't get rid of.

That's not what I meant to imply at all. I meant to say that too many people want the giant flytraps and too few want the genetically varied flytraps. That's why I believe that there was such a lack of Dionaea cultivars available in the US until the last few years due to lack of large-scale demand.

I do not have a bunch of flytraps sitting on a shelf somewhere that I can't get rid of. To the contrary, most of the plants we stock in the store simply sell far too quickly for us to be able to keep up with demand. Though try as I might to get them propagated and ready for sale, there are only so many hours in the day and the plants only grow so fast