dionaea muscipula ID

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dionaea muscipula ID

by balimynah » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:59 pm

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hello people, I'm new to this forum, my first post! :D
getting some dionaeas from a nursery here in India, all the clones were mixed up hence the seller does not know the exact names of the cultivars, I'm posting pics of 2. please help me id them. thanks!
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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by Darkrai283 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:32 pm

I'm sorry, but if I I'd not come with a label stating it as a specific type of VFT, it has to be classified as a 'typical'.

If you read this topic made by forum moderator 'Veronis', it might help clear things up a little bit about classification as well. LINK :)

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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by balimynah » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:26 pm

hi Darkrai, the seller said these are not the typical VFTs but some premium clones. he had got a huge lot of diffrent clones but unfortunately all got mixed up and he was able to find out the proper names of the clones.

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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by Darkrai283 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:45 pm

balimynah wrote:hi Darkrai, the seller said these are not the typical VFTs but some premium clones. he had got a huge lot of diffrent clones but unfortunately all got mixed up and he was able to find out the proper names of the clones.


Unfortunately, with no labels or any other form of classification, you will have to call it a 'typical'.

balimynah wrote:the seller said these are [u]not[/u] the typical VFTs but some premium clones


Is s/he a reputable seller? If not, it may have just been a scam to sell the plants quickly and maybe, at a higher price than usual.
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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by Veronis » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:40 pm

I believe that they could very well be named cultivars, but due to the genetics of venus flytraps and how random their appearance is (they are not like multi-species plants where ID'ing is possible via photos), Darkrai is right - you will never be able to ID the cultivar and label it.

Look here, and you will see that there are hundreds upon hundreds of cultivars out there, and so many of them look the same at a glance that it would be impossible for anyone to tell you what cultivar those flytraps are.

Bottom line: Pitcher plants, sundews, and butterworts can be ID'd via photos - flytraps, unfortunately, cannot.

Don't worry about the fact that you can't label them (I know I know, easier said than done...sorry for the bad news). Those flytraps, however, do look like very healthy young flytraps. My favorite flytrap in my collection is actually one of my seed-growns. Even if those aren't cultivars, which you'll never know, that doesn't make them inferior to cultivars. For example, I personally think Red Dragon is a rather unimpressive red cultivar. It's slow-growing, lanky/weak looking, and in my experience a fairly poor seeder. I have a red seed-grown that's better than a red dragon in every way. "Cultivar" does not make a flytrap "premium" - premium is a matter of opinion.

Do read my post - it may give you more insight, and possibly ideas on which flytrap cultivars you may want next (I list quite a few cultivars), which you would then be able to label if you attain them from a reputable source.

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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by sbrooks » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:46 pm

So, how would you know if you obtained a fake? Is there some Mona Lisa test, or something?
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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by Veronis » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:59 pm

Purchasing from reputable sellers or trading with reputable growers is the only way to be sure.

Some flytraps are easier to identify than others, to be fair. E.g. If you buy a Biohazard, you're probably getting a Biohazard.

Many cultivars look just too similar enough to others (or seed-growns, for that matter) to be ID'd via photos.

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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by sbrooks » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:13 pm

Thank, Veronis. Just to belabor the subject ad nauseum: Can an experienced grower identify, say, a Big Mouth, or a B52, or a DC XL, if the plant is in front of him? I realize the answer to this question could be a touchy subject, should you draw the conclusion that anyone can be fooled by a fake, and that it would be easy to pass a fake off on just about anybody. Are you saying that the only way to determine pedigree is with the "paperwork"?
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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by Veronis » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:07 pm

sbrooks wrote:Just to belabor the subject ad nauseum:

That phrase made me lol

There are some growers that can identify a flytrap from photos, but generally only the more unique ones. And even then, who's to say it isn't a seed-grown that happens to look similar?

If a flytrap is in front of an experienced grower, it won't really help much compared to detailed photos. B52, DC XL, and Big Mouth are just not unique enough to positively ID in an unlabeled pot. Even unique flytraps like Pom Pom and Biohazard can't be identified 100%, as any flytrap can mimic these mutations, but later show other traits that give them away as not the cultivar they pretended to be.

We could theoretically look at the trap size of a possible DC XL and assume it is what it is, based on all information (source, etc.), but it would still be an assumption. The most obvious answer of course would be to measure the mature traps, and even then, not all DC XL's/B52's traps are "max size", so you could easily be looking at a colorful seed-grown that looks like B52/Big Mouth or a large-trapped upright seed-grown that just tossed up a 1.9" trap, and since it looks like a DC XL, you then assume it's a DC XL. This is bad practice, though, and should never be done unless enough information is available to make a 100% certainty deduction.

An example: If you know that your flytrap is either "this" or "that", or even "one of these 6 cultivars", an experienced grower can sometimes deduce from there.

Another issue is growing conditions. A B52 in epic lighting will look far different than a B52 that only gets 3 hours of light per day. Color, size, growth, will all be different. Also, flytraps grown indoors can often look far different, especially coloration-wise, than flytraps grown in sunlight. How much they eat is also a factor (the less they eat, the more colorful they are).

Again, the key phrase here is reputable sources. I'm sure there are lots of mislabeled flytraps floating around out there.

Here are three flytraps. Which is B52 and which is Big Mouth?
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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by Darkrai283 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:16 pm

p1. b52
p.2. big mouth (looked like a crested petiole at first)
p.3. not sure, is it a big mouth as well?
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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by sbrooks » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:21 pm

Trick question. All three seed grown. (Actually, I haven't a clue). Anyway, thanks again for incredibly thorough, well thought out info. You truly know your "stuff", obviously have a passion for the subject matter, and are invaluable to the growers who visit this site. Thanks for your time!
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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by Matt » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:24 pm

I'll take a shot!
1) B52
2) Can't really tell from the photo because I can't see a full trap, but I'm going to guess Big Mouth
3) B52

I'm guessing that with a 50/50 chance to get each one right, I probably got one of the three right :)
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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by Veronis » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:19 pm

sbrooks was right, it was a trick question (sorry!) to illustrate the impossibility of ID'ing flytraps in most cases.

The flytraps pictured above, from top to bottom, are:
p3.jpg: Dionaea "G13"
p2.jpg: Dionaea "Clumping Cultivar"
p1.jpg: Dionaea "Big Jaws"


If, on the other hand, someone posted to the forum "I have this flytrap that I bought from FlytrapStore about 6 months ago. It's a cultivar but I lost the label and don't remember what it is! ID, anyone?"
and then showed this photo, we would be able to say with certainty that it is a Dionaea 'Korean Melody Shark'.
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Re: dionaea muscipula ID

by balimynah » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:24 pm

hi people, is he a rep seller? well he is the only seller of carnis in India and he won't cheat anyone for sure. i received the plants and the look nothing like my old typical green vfts..they were a bit damaged during transportation but are now showing growth so will post pics asap. thanks for all the help!


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