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Discuss water requirements, "soil" (growing media) and suitable planting containers

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By 95slvrZ28
Posts:  1825
Joined:  Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:00 pm
#118878
Keep up the good work!

I would like to note that all of those sands are in the acceptable range for potting VFTs though. Needless to say, I'm interested in more results :)
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By Steve_D
Location: 
Posts:  3913
Joined:  Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:06 pm
#118918
Naja002 wrote:I'm getting tired of dealing with the fun of cleaning peat, coir and sand. So, I think the following will make my life a bit easier.
Darn it! Yours is SO much nicer than my coir soaking station-- :x
Steve's Fancy Coir Soaking Station!
Steve's Fancy Coir Soaking Station!
coir-soaking-station.jpg (65.46 KiB) Viewed 6523 times
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By Naja002
Posts:  246
Joined:  Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:57 pm
#118926
95slvrZ28 wrote:Keep up the good work!

I would like to note that all of those sands are in the acceptable range for potting VFTs though. Needless to say, I'm interested in more results :)
Thanx for the support, Blake. I, too, am interested in the results of both playsands. I'd would say that the Quickrete is going out in the yard though... :mrgreen:


Steve_D wrote:
Naja002 wrote:I'm getting tired of dealing with the fun of cleaning peat, coir and sand. So, I think the following will make my life a bit easier.
Darn it! Yours is SO much nicer than my coir soaking station-- :x
coir-soaking-station.jpg
Good stuff, Steve! Image From an engineering standpoint--> You WIN! Image But I can tell you from personal experience that for me that type of simplicity rarely works out well. The plug would not stay, it would leak, it would not drain well, the plug would need replacing too often....something! It would be a headache for me. I've never understood how folks can pull that stuff off. It just never turns out very pretty for me. :evil:

Time to move up to one of these cut in half:
Image


Update:

Quickrete Pool Filter Sand-Mixed, same water as before: ~15 hr longer soak--start 32 ppm, now 43 ppm. I am about done with this sand. In a couple of days or so it should be back up to ~65 ppm...seems to be the long term result. We'll see, but I doubt I will be using this sand.

Playsand 1-Short Mountain Silica-Mixed, same water as before: ~15 hr longer soak--start 42 ppm, now 49 ppm. This sand can still use some drain and fills before any real conclusions can be reached.

Playsand 2-Pavestone- Not checked. Drained well last night and refilled. Soaked all night, and I'm going to let it bake in the sun again today. Note: I have not been stirring/mixing this sand. It soaks and I drain it from the bottom, so all of the water is pulled through it. Before I am done with it though...I will do some stirring/mixing to see if that matters.
By 95slvrZ28
Posts:  1825
Joined:  Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:00 pm
#118949
Steve_D wrote:Darn it! Yours is SO much nicer than my coir soaking station
Look on the bright side Steve, you have much better labeling! ;)
Naja002 wrote:I'd would say that the Quickrete is going out in the yard though...
43ppm is easily acceptable for CPs! :D Anyway, I don't have a fancy soak station, but I think I'm going to do a similar long duration test on my Quikrete Commercial Grade sand. I'm interested to see how it matches up.

EDIT: I just re-read this and I thought that I would put in an alert:
CAUTION: Curious Engineer Ahead

One thing you may want to consider when taking TDS measurements is, unless you have a TDS meter that automatically calibrates based on temperature the "apparent" TDS of your solution can actually vary quite a bit. A little research yielded that the perceived conductivity of water can change up to 4%/ deg C. This translates to roughly 2ppm/ deg C. I'm not suggesting your increase of 10ppm is solely attributed to this fact (since it's more a worst case condition), but it's something to keep in mind. If your climate is anything like mine, measuring in the middle of the night versus the hottest part of the day with a TDS meter that doesn't auto calibrate for temperature could produce a perceived difference of roughly 25ppm just due to temperature :(

If you want to get really technical with the tests you can take temperature along with TDS and we should be able to normalize the measurements since the temperature coefficient is almost linear, especially over a pretty small temperature range.
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By Naja002
Posts:  246
Joined:  Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:57 pm
#118950
95slvrZ28 wrote:43ppm is easily acceptable for CPs! :D Anyway, I don't have a fancy soak station, but I think I'm going to do a similar long duration test on my Quikrete Commercial Grade sand. I'm interested to see how it matches up.
The Quickrete and Playsand 1 are just in standard 5 gal buckets...hence, the mix/stir routine. The reason that I may toss it out in the yard is because it just seems to keep going up the longer it sits. It would do the same thing in a pot...keep leeching salts.

The only recommendation that I have come across is under 100 ppm and preferably under 50 ppm for water. I use RODI, so that gives me some leeway. However, what is the effect of mixing 30 ppm peat with 43 ppm sand? We don't know. The only practical way to measure it is to check the water. The only practical way to do that is to make the mix and then soak it. So saying that any component under 50 ppm(?) is ok is erroneous to me. It is assumption based. In the case of the Quickrete, my main concern is not it's current reading after 24 hrs of soaking...it's the fact that the longer it soaks...the higher the reading. It leeches into the media. What is it leeching? I don't know. :mrgreen: May not matter to VFTs, but, then again... ;)

Anyway, it would be good to know if the commercial Quickrete is any better or worse then the pool filter sand. I would like to find something that is readily available to many. I live just miles away from a silica mining facility (Short Mountain Silica), but that won't do most people any good. It would be nice to determine something that most people could get from a big box store or a local pool store.


95slvrZ28 wrote: One thing you may want to consider when taking TDS measurements is, unless you have a TDS meter that automatically calibrates based on temperature the "apparent" TDS of your solution can actually vary quite a bit. A little research yielded that the perceived conductivity of water can change up to 4%/ deg C. This translates to roughly 2ppm/ deg C. I'm not suggesting your increase of 10ppm is solely attributed to this fact (since it's more a worst case condition), but it's something to keep in mind. If your climate is anything like mine, measuring in the middle of the night versus the hottest part of the day with a TDS meter that doesn't auto calibrate for temperature could produce a perceived difference of roughly 25ppm just due to temperature :(

If you want to get really technical with the tests you can take temperature along with TDS and we should be able to normalize the measurements since the temperature coefficient is almost linear, especially over a pretty small temperature range.
I have a Hannah TDS-3. It has Temp readout and ATC. I didn't buy it from here, but here's a quick description:
HM TDS-3


Side note: Out of curiosity I got out my temp gun and checked the temp of the sand that is outside in the sun in the soak station @ ~4pm:

Temp outside bucket center of sand vertically: 118F
Temp inside top of sand: 111F

It's getting a little cooking.
By 95slvrZ28
Posts:  1825
Joined:  Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:00 pm
#118953
The temperature was merely a suggestion as to why you may be seeing the increase in TDS. Since you have a TDS meter with ATC that pretty much kills the suggestion. I just want to make it clear I'm not trying to be provocative just for the sake of doing so, I'm merely trying to eliminate factors for variation is all.

I started the tests on my Quikrete commercial and I'm currently soaking in tap. I'm doing my best to keep the water volume I put in and measure consistent to keep the readings consistent. The sand started at roughly 970ppm though. OUCH! I'm working on getting it under 180ppm with my tap water and then I'll move to distilled. Measuring with a HM AquaPro-1 (has ATC)
By Naja002
Posts:  246
Joined:  Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:57 pm
#118956
95slvrZ28 wrote:The temperature was merely a suggestion as to why you may be seeing the increase in TDS. Since you have a TDS meter with ATC that pretty much kills the suggestion. I just want to make it clear I'm not trying to be provocative just for the sake of doing so, I'm merely trying to eliminate factors for variation is all.
Hey Blake, It's all good. I fully realize that you are trying to be helpful and I do appreciate the effort and participation! Image

As far as Temp....Do they even sell TDS meters without ATC? If so, what would be the point? This is the 2nd handheld that I've had. I may still have the other one somewhere, but I'm pretty sure I sold it. I've had a couple of the mountable ones. They've all had ATC. Personally, I think that it is just a necessary function in order to provide a useable tool. At any rate, mine has it, so it's not an issue. Image

95slvrZ28 wrote: I started the tests on my Quikrete commercial and I'm currently soaking in tap. I'm doing my best to keep the water volume I put in and measure consistent to keep the readings consistent. The sand started at roughly 970ppm though. OUCH! I'm working on getting it under 180ppm with my tap water and then I'll move to distilled. Measuring with a HM AquaPro-1 (has ATC)
My advice based on experience recently and yrs ago with aquariums is: Go ahead and rinse all of the garbage out of it with the tap. Then burn through the distilled to get the level really low. Then start soaking. It's a major waste of time to try to soak it all out. Takes a lot of water, but it will take the same amount without wasting a bunch of time.

That sand may just be really dirty, but not in a leeching kind of way once it's cleaned. I suspect it will be about the same or worse than the pool filter sand, but, we'll see... :mrgreen:
By Naja002
Posts:  246
Joined:  Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:57 pm
#118966
MSDS-B1-SandAndGravel

QUIKRETE® Product Name Product #
ALL- PURPOSE SAND 1152
ALL PURPOSE GRAVEL 1151
POOL FILTER SAND 1153 *See Sections 3 & 11 of this MSDS
PLASTER SAND 1113-54
TUBE SAND 1159
PATIO PAVER JOINTING SAND 1150-59
PATIO PAVER SAND 1150
MASON SAND 1952
TRACTION SAND 1158/ 2023
POWER-LOC JOINTING SAND 1150-47


-----------------------------------
PRODUCT USE: CALCAREOUS, SILICIOUS AND CRUSHED GRANITE AGGREGATES FOR USE IN CONSTRUCTION
-----------------------------------


----------------------------------
SECTION III - HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS/IDENTITY INFORMATION
Hazardous Components CAS No. PEL (OSHA) TLV (ACGIH)
mg/M3 mg/M3
Limestone 01317-65-3 5 5
Silica Sand, crystalline 14808-60-7 10 0.05 (respirable)
%SiO2+2
---------------------------------

That would explain a lot.



_________________________

MSDS-B2-CommercialGradeSand

QUIKRETE® Product Name Code #
COMMERCIAL GRADE SAND FINE 1961
MEDIUM1962 *See Sections 3 & 11 of this MSDS
COARSE 1963
-----------------------------------
PRODUCT USE: SILICA SANDS FOR USE IN CONSTRUCTION
-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------
SECTION III - HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS/IDENTITY INFORMATION
Hazardous Components CAS No. PEL (OSHA) TLV (ACGIH)
mg/M3 mg/M3
Silica Sand, crystalline 14808-60-7 10 0.05 (respirable)
-----------------------------------

Appears to be 100% silica. You may have some good stuff, Blake!
Last edited by Naja002 on Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
By Naja002
Posts:  246
Joined:  Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:57 pm
#118967
Next set of results:

Quickrete pool filter sand: Same water. Before: 43 ppm, Static water: 46 ppm, Mixed: 50 ppm

Playsand 1-Short Mountain Silica: Same water. Before: 49 ppm, Static water: 53 ppm, Mixed: 56 ppm

Playsand 2-Pavestone: Soaked overnight last night, cooked in the sun all day:

Start of drain: 14 ppm
Mid-drain 1: 13 ppm
Mid- drain 2: 12 ppm
End drain: 10 ppm

Definitely looking really good, just a fine grade of sand. If I use this I may follow Steve's recommendation here:
Steve_D wrote: If I couldn't find coarse silica sand, I would use the fine and just use a greater percentage of it in the growing mix. For example, if I were to create a mix for a bog garden and didn't want to use perlite but only sphagnum peat moss and sand, I might make a mix of 50% peat moss and 50% coarse sand, or 40% peat moss and 60% fine sand--something like that. I would experiment with the ratios and see how the moist mix looks and crumbles in my hands before deciding on exactly what proportion to use.
Re:SAND
By 95slvrZ28
Posts:  1825
Joined:  Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:00 pm
#119003
Naja002 wrote:Do they even sell TDS meters without ATC? If so, what would be the point?
They most certainly do! The cheaper ones don't have ATC (so the HM TDS-EZ, HM TDS-2 etc.). They can still give you a decent idea of the ppm, it's just not quite as precise as one with ATC. Better than nothing at least!
Naja002 wrote:Limestone 01317-65-3 5 5
I think you found your culprit! :)

Do you have anything to test the pH of your playsand drain water? That could also be a potential concern with a non-silica based sand.
By Naja002
Posts:  246
Joined:  Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:57 pm
#119008
95slvrZ28 wrote:
Naja002 wrote:Do they even sell TDS meters without ATC? If so, what would be the point?
They most certainly do! The cheaper ones don't have ATC (so the HM TDS-EZ, HM TDS-2 etc.). They can still give you a decent idea of the ppm, it's just not quite as precise as one with ATC. Better than nothing at least!
Seems pretty silly to me, but it is what it is. Good to know though!
Selection Guide


95slvrZ28 wrote:
Naja002 wrote:Limestone 01317-65-3 5 5
I think you found your culprit! :)

Do you have anything to test the pH of your playsand drain water? That could also be a potential concern with a non-silica based sand.
Yes, results below:

My Pseudo-lab of cheap hobbyist grade test kits:

Image

My Gh test kit is apparently no good. I tested it on my tap...which always comes out around 18, after 40 drops--I quit. It did not show any results on any other water either. Everything except my tap should be low to 0 Gh.

Some results:

Tap water
289 ppm
pH-not taken
Gh-no useable result
Kh-not taken

RODI
0 ppm
pH-6.4-6.6
Gh-no useable result
Kh-0

Quickrete pool filter sand
Same water-Was: 50, static: 54, mixed: 57 ppm
pH-7.2
Gh-no useable result
Ca: =/<2
Kh-2

Playsand 1-Short Mountain Silica
Same water-Was: 56, Static: 62, Mixed: 64
pH-7.6
Gh-no useable result
Ca-2
Kh-3

Playsand 2-Pavestone
11 ppm
pH-6.4-6.6
Gh-no useable result
Ca-0
Kh-0

Keep in mind that these are cheap hobby grade test kits. Their accuracy is always questionable, but the results are as expected. The failure of the 2 Gh bottles was confirmed with a known source--my tap water.

Looks like 2 of these sands are going out in the yard. The Pavestone looks good, except for the fine grain size. HD was out of pool filter sand, but the Pavestone Pool filter sand is also sold by Walmart. This time of year it may need to be ordered in from either source, but it should be accessible to the average US citizen. It seems to be a bit coarser grade than the playsand.

Very curious on your Quickrete commercial grade sand. The coarse version of that should be obtainable at least through order via Lowes.


BTW, I also looked into the Sakrete brand sold by HD last night, and a lot of their sands look like 100% silica.
By 95slvrZ28
Posts:  1825
Joined:  Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:00 pm
#119014
Naja002 wrote:Very curious on your Quickrete commercial grade sand.
Just a quick update.

Started around 970ppm. Got it down to the TDS of my tap (roughly 160). I just started the first soak in distilled after stirring it and it started at 48ppm. We'll see how it progresses!
By Naja002
Posts:  246
Joined:  Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:57 pm
#119035
95slvrZ28 wrote:
Naja002 wrote:Very curious on your Quickrete commercial grade sand.
Just a quick update.

Started around 970ppm. Got it down to the TDS of my tap (roughly 160). I just started the first soak in distilled after stirring it and it started at 48ppm. We'll see how it progresses!
Sounds good. If it goes up little to none....then you might as well flush it out, then do a final soak.


Final numbers--Quickrete and Playsand 1 are out in the yard:

Quickrete Pool Filter Sand-Lowes- Same water-Was: 57, static: 60, mixed: 63 ppm
Like I said earlier....In a couple of days or so it will be back up to 65 ppm. Close enough.

Playsand 1-Short Mountain Silica aka "Premium Play Sand"-Lowes -Same water-Was: 64, static: 66, mixed: 68 ppm

I think all of the numbers show that the above 2 sands are not a good choice for CPs.


Playsand 2- Pavestone "Natural Play Sand"-Home Depot- I ran ~4 gallons of 3ppm rain water through this and the ppm dropped to 5. I am going to let it soak until tomorrow morning or afternoon, stir it, check the ppm and drain it. I suspect the ppm will still be under 10. If I do anything else to it...it will just be to run a couple gals of RODI through it....might, might not. I'll let it drain well and then put it in a mortar tub to dry out for a while.

We've had a lot of rain here over the last 24 hrs from TS Lee. I checked the drain water in my self-irrigating pots. The pots with the best growth, etc showed 12-14 ppm water. The pots with ok to not so ok growth showed ~36 ppm. The pots with the best growth have washed peat and Pavestone Pool Filter sand ~50/50. The pots with the ok or not so ok growth have either washed peat or coir and the Quickrete Pool Filter sand....~50/50.
Personally, from what I am seeing different cultivars have a different tolerance for ppm. Same pot and media mix. Plants of the same size-young plant to mature, different reactions to higher ppm. Could be the specific individual plants.(?)
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