FlytrapCare Carnivorous Plant Forums

LAKJP wrote:

uusa2000 wrote:

cjpflaumer wrote: You can't. You can't mutate the DNA of said typical to match the DNA of Maroon Monster. If anyone could it would be awfully expensive lol.

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So which cultivars are mutations?

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Maybe someone with a background in genetics and life sciences can better explain this...

I have to agree. I'm not sure what else to say.

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This is becoming a decent dip into college level genetics.

"Mutation" is a loaded term, because anything outside of the "normal" phenotype could be considered a mutation. The the Venus flytrap's whole existence is due to mutations from its predecessors, after all. Technically, anything that isn't a "typical" has some sort of mutation.

You could also move the goalposts a bit and say that VFTs that normally wouldn't survive in the wild are the "mutants." This would include cultivars that cannot trap prey such as 'Wacky Traps' and 'Buttcheeks.'

Growers can try to highlight specific traits through crosses, but it generally seems to be a moderately educated crapshoot. The process fairly unpredictable because of the amount of gametes produced. Each fertilized seed pod is a cluster of unique crosses, and the numbers get big pretty quickly.

If you have the means to get a few VFT cultivar genomes sequenced (tall order now, but maybe not in 15-20 years), you can determine genetic sequences for various traits. After that, it's even more time, money and expertise to modify a VFT's genetic makeup to become that of an established cultivar. It is an extremely long shot, but it is technically possible because science is awesome.

Different cultivars are produced when a genetic variation occurs. It's typically slow, though.

Let's say you have a bunch of green 'typicals', but you notice that a few, due to natural variations, are slightly more pink than the rest. You select those plants, breed them with each other, and get a batch of seedlings. Many of those seedlings are the same pink as the parents, but a few are darker, so you take the pinkest ones and breed those. Continue until you have bright pink plants. Tada! Selective breeding. Name these "Hot Pink", register them, and you have a cultivar. And I'm fairly sure that, in order to get those slightly pink plants at the very beginning, a mutation has to occur somewhere along the line.

Let's then say that, out of a batch of seed-grown plants, you notice that exactly one plant is missing all of its 'teeth'. It's been like that since it sprouted from a seed. This is a mutation, and a drastic one. Something has gone wrong in the DNA replication from the parent, and the bit that says "grow teeth on your traps" is missing or deactivated. This plant and its clones can be registered as another cultivar, we'll call it "Toothless".

If you then proceed to crossbreed the "Hot Pink" and the "Toothless", you might be able to come up with a red plant that grows very short teeth. This plant could then be registered as a third cultivar, "Pink Clam". It has at least two genetic mutations in its past that were not present in the original green plants.

The original Venus Flytraps were the result of mutations, too. Mutations are the base of evolution, after all- you don't have a lizard lay eggs that hatch into raptors, you have a lizard lay eggs, some of which hatch into lizards with slightly longer hindlegs, which breed to produce lizards with slightly longer hindlegs, and so on until they become bipedal.

I assume the third scenario is what is being asked about, the one where two different cultivars are crossbred and the result is a separate cultivar. As for what cultivars were obtained by that, I haven't the slightest idea, and I'm not sure anyone knows for most. They've probably been selectively bred out from the original crossbreed. You might be able to ask people who've developed specific cultivars where they came from, but I don't think anyone has a list.

Ok jonathan_, I think I understand what you are asking. The answer is no: the named VFT cultivars are not stable hybrids of of other cultivars.

Lets think about sweet corn: in order to plant an entire field of one type of corn you need a whole lot of seed, you can't take offsets and TC clones and plant them out the way you would to grow a bunch of identical VFTs. Through breeding, you would learn that crossing corn A with corn B produces seed that grows into corn C. If the resulting corn C was consistant, you might name it Zea mays 'C' and everyone would know that if they ordered that seed it would grow into the expected hybrid cultivar.

Now, Jonathan_ asked the same thing: do we know if, say, we cross red dragon with grun will we consistantly get a stable hybrid 'B 52'? The answer is no, not at this stage in the VFT breeding program. Much more work on corn breeding and selection has been done than has been done with VFTs, but it is certainly possible to get there.

At this point, most cultivars arise from small scale breeding programs and probably some level of selection for traits, as discussed by others on this thread. When a good specimen arises from a batch of seedling, that plant is named and propagated vegetatively to produce identical clones of itself. Another source of new cultivars is spontaneous mutation. This is when, say, a typical looking VFT has a mutation in an axial bud and produces a bright red offset. You would then name that offset something like 'flaming demon' and propagate it vegetatively like the seedling cultivar.

I hope this helps.

Does the whole plant have to have mutated features or can just one leaf? I noticed on a seedlings one trap had a cup. Can that cupped leaf be pulled & propagated to get a whole plant if cups?

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Deformed traps like that may be a result of damage rather than a mutation. Since they're seedlings, any mutation that happened would most likely have occurred during pollination and seed production, which would mean the whole plant would be affected.

If you have a mutated plant( say red leaves) , and take a leaf cutting, he new plant would be an exact clone of the old. If it were pollinated, not all of the seedlings would have red leaves

HeliamphoraWalnut wrote:If you have a mutated plant( say red leaves) , and take a leaf cutting, he new plant would be an exact clone of the old. If it were pollinated, not all of the seedlings would have red leaves

But what if its only one or 2 traps mutated?

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uusa2000 wrote: But what if its only one or 2 traps mutated?

Deformed traps occur on plants for any number of reasons (coming out of dormancy, etiolation, etc.). You would need to see that characteristic expressed on multiple leaves consistently for it to be a reproducible trait.

You cannot do a leaf pulling using a deformed leaf of an otherwise typical plant and expect the clone to put up only deformed leaves. It will have the exact same genetic makeup as the mother plant. Outside conditions caused the plant to express the genes differently, not a mutation.

I still don't get it. If the Venus Flytraps that are in cultivation are just normal cultivars that had unique characteristics and traits with a name slapped on them then why isn't a cultivar like Wacky Traps found in the wild? What is the process of getting that trait? Or how is it caused?

How do you know that a cultivar like Wacky traps is not found in the wild?

Selective breeding and propagation efforts, as well as it's fitness all contribute to why the typical flytrap is standard. There could be a Wacky traps or Buttcheeks type flytrap in the wild, but it's a rarity (it also is rare to have mutants in captivity which is why most seeds produce relatively normal flytraps). The reason we have a lot of them is due to tissue culture/propagation by enthusiasts. There could be a flytrap mutant sitting in a field somewhere that no one has come across. The reason the fields are not full of them is because if it has viable flowers the offspring will likely be normal. It could also die after a hard winter since it's weaker than other plants which could catch insects.

The process of getting a trait is breeding. You mix the genetic material from two plants and see what you get. If you want i.e. red traps with a weird tooth structure your best bet is to breed reds and weirdos together. Those traits (red traps or unique teeth) come from mutations (i.e. germline mutations). Something crazy like Alien could just pop up in a batch of seedlings one day due to those mutations, or genetic material shuffling (parents had the genes for that phenotype, and when combined it made an elongated trap. look at a punnet square).

Also I can cross pollinate my maroon monster and schuppenstiel everyday until the seed pods form. This will lead to a higher chance of crazy offspring in my seedling trays. In the wild it's random, no one is selectively breeding one weirdo in a corner of a field to a weirdo in another separate flytrap site... so weird phenotypes are less likely to occur.

Also, wild Venus fly traps look like that (bright red trap inside, wide traps, teeth, kinda short growth habit) because that particular mix of traits is the best combination for a carnivorous plant of that style to survive in the Carolinas. Red plants or ones with wacky-looking traps don't develop because those are bad traits to have, and the plants that start to have those traits die out before they can reproduce.

You can probably find plants that resemble cultivars like 'Wacky Traps' in the wild, but they will be scarce. They will have to grow in nearly ideal conditions since they cannot feed/harvest more nitrogen. Typical VFTs (green, smallish traps, vigorous) will be the most common, since they have the best chance of survival. They can feed on small crawling bugs like ants and termites, harvest lots of light, and put out new growth quickly.

Think of it this way: humans were able to breed the toy poodle into existence, and it started as a ferocious wolf. There is a possibility that two wolves breeding will produce a cute little fluffball, but it isn't very likely. However, through selective breeding, you can change a species' characteristics pretty drastically.

Survival of the fittest... unless you are interesting to the humans!

Being interesting is survival of the fittest! "Fittest" doesn't mean strongest, fastest, or smartest, it means best adapted to fit the situation at hand. If the situation is being a breed of small dog being kept by humans, whichever pups are most interesting are the fittest.